Devil Wears SPF

[00:00:00]

On a bright but wintry November day, the kind where the sun feels like a little miracle. I sent a note to someone I had never met. Her name was Carolyn Hawes. I wrote to thank her for the way that she had showed up for half Betty with encouragement, humor, and a deeply appreciated honesty. I want to thank her for cheering on the community that Krista and I were building, simply because she believed in women backing women.

Her return note was filled with warmth, candor, and that now familiar sparkle. And not long after the SPF wearing devil and this bright shining Betty found their way into conversation. Because when women see and support one another, our collective strength, tenderness, determination, and courage forms something very powerful, a bond that builds into the global architecture for change.

The kind of change that puts humanity back at the center, the heart of it all. Today we're honored to welcome not one guest, but two [00:01:00] Carolyn Hawes and Diane Brennan, the brilliant friends and voices behind the Devil Wears SPF podcast. You'll hear their stories of their center lives, their podcast, and the futures they're designing with courage, wit, and of course sunscreen.

We're so happy to have you join us.

Andrea: I feel very fortunate that, Carolyn, you and I had a chance to have an

unfiltered, and candid conversation

and that was so lovely. And then I got to hear what you and Diane are up to and everything that you've been working on and building. And, I've been so excited to meet you, Diane.

So thank you for

Carolyn: she is. The whole package

Diane: Excited to meet you too. This is awesome. Thank you guys.

Andrea: we really appreciate you. in all that you've got going on, carving out a little space in the, flight attendant lounge. So is that also part of what you do? Are you a flight attendant?

Diane: I am, I received my Italian [00:02:00] citizenship, and I wanna retire in Italy and spend six months in Italy and six months in Arizona. I'm Canadian too, and American, so I have three. Um, and then Delta was hiring, so I just thought, you know, I should do that in order to get the flight benefits.

So I applied to be a, a gate agent and they didn't hire me and then they sent me an email saying we're hiring flight attendants. And I just hit apply and it auto-populated. And I said, okay, well I'm just gonna go with this. I'm also a full-time real estate agent too, so, um, I do both,

Andrea: So

We're gonna jump in and start off with, having each of you sharingyour individual stories. And words that you feel really resonate for you.

And they can be new words. Uh, they can be words that you've carried with you throughout your life. They can be words for right now, or what you're feeling right now. They can be for the future. There's no rules around the words that you choose to share.

But what we do find is that those words find a way of weaving [00:03:00] themselves through your story.

Carolyn: uh, can I just ask what is the rating on this podcast? Because, you know, Diane might come out with some

Krista: Swear

Diane: She's already, she's already throwing me under the bus. I have not.

Krista: It's consistently rated, explicit so that we can swear and not have to worry about it.

Carolyn: Okay. Then in that case, I'm gonna pull up the right list, the X-rated

Andrea: I love it.

Diane: I'll start. Um, so when I thought it was words to describe myself. Um, and then I was like, oh my gosh, we as women have such a hard time describing ourselves. So then I was like, well, let me ask my friends what they think. Um, and then now with your explanation, I'm thinking of some different words.

Um, but at this point in my career and my life, I'm just all about fun and adventure. And if it's not fun, then I'm just not gonna do it. Where when I was younger, I would just kind of suffer through stuff, you know what I mean? [00:04:00] And now time's the ticking. we're getting older and it's now, what matters is the memories and having a good time and spending time with good people and quality time.

And, it's important 'cause time's now limited, I mean, before when I was younger, I'm like, the world's my o oyster and still it is my oyster. And now I'm realizing like I wanna have a good time with absolutely everything I do.

I wanna have fun every minute of the day, whether I am going to the post office or at work or whatever. It's more of a kind of carefree attitude And the small things don't matter as much.

Andrea: I love your description. How you arrived at adventure and fun in that you asked your friends when there were no rules around what your words could be, which there aren't. And I would be curious, what did you learn from your friends?

Did you hear some words from your friends as well that that resonated?

Diane: my [00:05:00] friends are always supportive, right? And they're gonna say stuff that I would never repeat in terms of, I would never want anyone to misconstrue that as that's how I feel about myself. So, I don't know. As women, we don't wanna brag or we wanna be humble, you know? I mean, my friends think I'm absolutely fabulous, so what can I say?

But.

Andrea: This is important for us to Feel empowered to share,

And I think we have to, as women, de-stigmatize this idea that by saying that we are wonderful somehow we become egocentric and, all the other negative, words that we can think of

Diane: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea: I love that your friends say that you're absolutely fabulous.

Diane: I have good friends. Yeah, absolutely. but I'm not gonna say that. You know? So, um,

Andrea: Well, you just did

Diane: I did, I did believe it. People I am all that in a bag of chips. Just kidding. See, my face is turning red. That's [00:06:00] embarrassing to say, but, uh, um,

Andrea: and, and that's okay because you're practicing and I'm inspired to hear you say that.

Diane: well good. I'm glad Carolyn, you take over now I've got one word.

Carolyn: it is so much easier to be self-deprecating

And I don't know if it's across cultures, but it would be interesting to know if it is because, we are always so burdened by the pause in saying something good about ourselves. which, yeah, what is that about? And I love that you're doing this exercise because I think it's an important conversation, butas we move into middle age, we do have a more robust ability to say, yeah, dammit.

Like we can say, I want this. And like Diane said, I wanna have fun when I do things. I don't need to be apologetic for saying no to something I don't wanna do. And,saying yes to something I do. and that should follow in line with [00:07:00] also being able to say, I do what's best for me because I deserve it.

And if we're doing something because we know we deserve it, then we also know that we are great humans, and we should be able to express that as well. So I think that's a really important message, and I appreciate that you do this with your guests. Now drum roll please. I, I think it might be more interesting to actually know what words didn't make the cut.

'cause I, I kept incontinent off my list. I just want you guys to know that, so I will move on from there. Um,

Andrea: no rules, and that's, that's the fun part

Diane: I cannot relate to that statement.

Carolyn: you are lucky.

Andrea: as she drinks her big, huge bottle of water.

Carolyn: Um, okay, so my list ladies, I started with, the word [00:08:00] self-authored. And that's probably the deepest word that I have on my list, and it's the first one that came to me. I believe that I grew up in a way where I was constantly looking to appease and please all those around me.

And it came to a point when I was in my thirties that I realized I didn't even know what my opinion was about anything. And I can remember having the thoughts where I reflected on the fact that if somebody said, you know, what would you like to eat?

I would cautiously, maybe suggest something, but always hoping that it aligned with the person who is asking. And the habit from childhood carried on into my adulthood, and I came A conclusion that I needed to really sit down and even if I was faking it at first, I needed to create a new habit of understanding what I [00:09:00] wanted and being, uh, uncensored in my ability to, to say it.

and so I started that journey. Um, and now I am declaring that I am self-authored. and I love being in an age where it's okay for me to have a different opinion, even if the whole room says they like the color blue. I, I don't have to suddenly sway on that. And I can say, you know.

Mine is green or whatever. and it used to come down to something as simple as that for me. It was literally no matter what I was engaged in as far as an opinion goes, I was constantly worried that it wasn't in line with those around me. And so, yeah, that's my deepest

Diane: when was your, I know here, I'm asking a question. I'm not supposed to be sorry,

Andrea: This [00:10:00] is perfect. You are

Krista: Oh, it's a conversation.

Diane: your, so when did you realize like, I wanna stop this. what was your turning point?

Carolyn: it was a big event actually. I had a boyfriend

So I, I ended up getting married and I was divorced by the age of 30.

Um, I'd been with this person through all of my twenties and in reflection I realized, and there I was, you know, this person who is constantly appeasing those around me. And I followed a path of also partnering with somebody who was safe in the respect that they were very much like what I felt a relationship was supposed to be based on my childhood and what was role modeled to me.

So it was a very unhealthy relationship and. It was, verbally abusive, and [00:11:00] I felt that was my norm. That was, what I felt comfortable in. And so when I got divorced and I was suddenly this adult human for the first time on my own, essentially, I had to start thinking about what I really wanted in my life.

it wasn't a path anymore where I was just being subservient to the needs or the wishes of somebody else just to avoid conflict. Now I suddenly didn't have that armor that I needed to wear, or the weight that had rested so heavily on my shoulders for so long, and I really needed to start making a lot of really big decisions.

And I decided that. With the reflection of my habits of continuously appeasing, people around me, especially those close to me, I needed to start [00:12:00] putting myself on the top of that list. And so the little habits of somebody saying, you know, uh, what flavor of ice cream do you want me to get you?

Or, would you like a coffee or simple things that seem, inert in so many ways to every day, big decisions But I had to get into the habit of just declaring something. Even if I walked away and said, oh shit, no, I, I actually don't want a coffee.

I have to declare what is true to me. And, uh, yeah, it was a big turning point for me, a big turning point.

Krista: How long do you think it took you to kind of, I'm gonna say reprogram your brain and your body to get to the point where it was just natural for you or have you gotten there? I don't know.

Carolyn: Yeah, I, I believe I have And I think I started to realize that it wasn't a forced habit anymore. Uh, probably, it probably took me [00:13:00] about five years or so. It took me when I was pregnant and had my first child. I think through the process of beings single and then meeting somebody eventually, and then us having a baby,

I realize now that, and especially because I had a daughter, I realize that I have to model all of the things that I want this baby girl to learn in the world. And me just saying it wasn't gonna be enough, I had to actually do it. that was a biggie for me. Yeah, it definitely took time and I probably didn't always reflect on it as much, but I certainly knew that the weight of that responsibility meant that I didn't want to raise her.

It sounds [00:14:00] self-deprecating, but I didn't wanna raise her to be like me like I was. I wanted her to be strong in her opinion and use her voice and. All the same things that I want from my friends and the people I love. Um, and so having Maya, my first daughter was pretty poignant in that lesson for me.

Andrea: Hmm. Those are great questions. Um, and self-authored is so powerful, in the sense of the agency that that gives a person to write, not only write our story, but to know that our story is entirely in our hands and shaped by our decisions and not outside decisions.[00:15:00]

Carolyn: Yeah. And the bad decisions too.

Andrea: You cannot have one without the other. So good decisions, bad decisions, but it all becomes our story,

Carolyn: That's right.

Krista: The word, worthy is also coming to mind.

Andrea: Hmm.

Krista: like, we're worth it.

Diane: Yeah.

Krista: it's important for us to do that, not like, yes, for ourselves first. But as you say, A lot can change when you have kids, your perspective changes and you want so much for your kids.

Yeah. That's really cool. Any more words that,

Andrea: Uh, I'm writing Worthy down with your name next to it, Krista?

Krista: okay. Love. Yeah.

Andrea: Uh, yeah.

Carolyn: you are

Krista: Approved. Um,

Carolyn: Yep.

Krista: any more words either one of you wanna share? we're off to a great start and we can keep going back and forth. Or if you're on a roll, you keep going. I.

Carolyn: Do you have one? Diane, that you

Diane: Oh, the pressure. Well, I think worthy, and Carolyn, your story. we [00:16:00] women suffer from a lack of self love, from a young age. Andthat's kind of the root of all of us. Um, and life's a journey and learning to love yourselves that's the first step for having other people in your life love you,

So I took a course and, um. I'm gonna reveal one of the exercises.

So you imagine this beautiful toddler on your knee and how adorable the toddler is and how much you love

your child, and how cute it is. And you go through the emotions of how much you love this child, um, how much you take care of it, how much you would fight for this child, um, if anyone was to hurt this child, how angry you would be. You just wanna protect it. And you go through all these emotions that you feel for this child, and then at the end of the exercise they tell you, well, that child is you. And then that made me realize, oh my gosh, I do not love myself. I am not taking care of this body. I've been given, I've not been taking care of anything and, [00:17:00] and I am not loving myself with my actions throughout life. So the worthy and Carolyn's story, I think it's just a reminder to love yourself.

And I hope I expressed that story. It really affected me. And one one of the strongest exercises that really, um, helped me realize, where I needed improvement or work in my life So,

Andrea: Mm-hmm. That you definitely landed,

Krista: sense. Yeah.

Andrea: I love that you had the experience of seeing yourself as a child, um, it's a really powerful exercise.

Diane: how much we'll take care of other people and put ourselves, you know, last, so.

Andrea: It's so true. And another guest that we had at one point, shared something that landed and that was tied to this in that many of us, are willing to do anything for others to the point where we are constantly searching out we [00:18:00] can do to satisfy other people's needs or whatever it is, because that becomes our narrative and our mission.

And when we do that, we are feeling great that we did something for other people.

Carolyn: And while that's wonderful, when it comes to other people doing things for us, often we deflect or we don't even ask Absolutely.

Andrea: And the biggest takeaway for me that landed was why would you be unkind by not allowing other people to feel as good as you feel when you do things for them by allowing them to do things for you?

Denying them the,

to do something. Yes.

Carolyn: Mm-hmm.

Krista: I think what's part of this and why we hold back is we're scared of what the answer's going to [00:19:00] be, and we also have to be prepared for that person to say no and really, truly understand that they have the power you can't force them to do anything if that's not in their capacity to do that thing for you.

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Carolyn: have to do it. If they don't want to do it, they're an adult. They're going to say. You know what? I don't have the capacity to do that right now. Thank you for asking. Maybe another time or just simply no,which is what we were talking about, about choosing things that matter to you for whatever the reason is. I think we can also cloak that in, um. The idea that we're doing for people when really it's a very self-serving and protective act to always feel like we have, control of it, and it's an avoidant act because we feel safe in that space of, no, no, no, no, no.

I'll do it. and so even without consciously making that [00:20:00] decision and knowing that there's joy that we're getting from it, sometimes I think, based on when I reflect on my own life is that I think often it wasn't because I felt joy by doing something for somebody. I was trying to overt a, a negative outcome.

Like I was just protecting myself by doing it.

Diane: yeah, along the same lines or you're avoiding looking at yourself by spending your energy elsewhere. It postpones you from taking a look at things you need to fix or working on yourself.

Carolyn: Yeah.

Andrea: much so.

Diane: the word deny. Um, a lot of times we try and rescue situations, or if someone's having a hard time, uh, we wanna rescue them or answer the question or help them find it and then we also deny them the opportunity of that journey for growth, for letting them go through a little bit of a difficult time.

If you're saving and rescuing and fixing and doing, you're denying [00:21:00] them the opportunity for that growth. that little uncomfortableness that leads to huge breakthroughs and growth too.

Carolyn: Mm-hmm.

Krista: A hundred

Carolyn: nothing heroic in being a martyr.

Carolyn, would you lead us up to your last number of years or your midlife and with something that you feel has been a moment where things shifted for you or you saw a different path forward for

Diane: Can we,

Krista: Also, if you had a, if you had more words, you can say

Diane: I, you know, I have a word I don't like, and I realize I cringe every time I hear midlife.

Andrea: Oh,

Diane: I would like to, could we, could we call it like our time or like coin, a new phrase? Start it. I don't know. I don't know why it

Andrea: what comes up for you?

Diane: something cool. Midlife just sounds so depressing.

Carolyn: I did reflect on that once 'cause Yeah, I was thinking about that too. And I felt like, how about it being the center? We're at the center of our [00:22:00] lives. I, um, we're.

Diane: Yeah, I

Carolyn: who are in the center of their lives, because you have the past and then you still have this whole big future ahead of you.

And so really it's a position of power and we

Andrea: Mm.

Carolyn: center of our lives

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Carolyn: the focal point where we are now impassioned to find clarity in our direction as to what we want and where we wanna go and how we wanna live out the rest of our lives. So I think it's Amen, sister.

I think it's reflective

Andrea: I

Carolyn: of that stuff.

Krista: I love it too.

Andrea: appreciate you, identifying a word that doesn't resonate. and I think, Carolyn, you said it earlier, you said it might be interesting to hear the words that didn't make it to our list. 'cause maybe we don't like them. So, Diane,

Carolyn: That was perfect.

Andrea: thank you for throwing out a word that doesn't resonate.

Carolyn: words are so powerful, and also disarming. And [00:23:00] so when something doesn't land like midlife, I, I think it's important for us to, dig into that and figure out, why,

Andrea: Gosh. We could just do a whole show just on words.

Diane: could,

Carolyn: we could, we

Krista: I feel like Carolyn has more words,

Diane: I think she has a whole list that's down

Krista: do you have a list?

Andrea: Yeah.

Carolyn: I'll just, I'll just, uh,

Krista: I wanna hear them.

Carolyn: just say them out rapidly. So silly was my next word. Intuitive, design minded. Strategic. And I have aesthetic. I used to think I was artistic, but now I think it's more aesthetic.

Krista: Oh, I love that discovery. That's cool.

Andrea: Can you say, you said worthy design minded. I like that. And what was after that?

Carolyn: Um, yeah, silly, intuitive, design minded, strategic

Andrea: Yes.

Carolyn: and [00:24:00] aesthetic. I think I reached into the last, five to 10 years of my life. In those ones I was thinking, okay, what do I do and what have I been trying to accomplish? And what projects have I had in my life? And I, um, sorry, I'm doing a little segue now.

I guess if I go back to, uh, your question about, what about the last leading up to sort of today I.

Diane: off with one time at Band Camp.

Carolyn: One time when I was in band camp.

Andrea: It all starts in band Camp.

Carolyn: Yeah, it does, it was adult band camp, so you don't wanna know what happened there. I began, working as an editor in university here. And so that was my career for many years. And in addition to that, I was a writer and, did project [00:25:00] management and of the sort all different things.

But as I reached probably my mid to late forties, I started to not feel like myself anymore. And I wasn't sure what the heck was going on. And the biggest thing that hit me was brain fog. In my position, I didn't have the ability to suffer from a lot of brain fog. So I began, struggling and I didn't know why.

I didn't know what was happening. And of course, then other things were attached to that. I was, you know, you get achy. I couldn't go through the day without having an app. And I just put it all in the category of, well, maybe I'm exhausted. MaybeI'm [00:26:00] not sleeping well enough and maybe I'm just getting old.

all of these things where it seemed to be easy to sweep it all in one big pile and sort of push it off to the side. Um, one of the things that I was doing while I was. Working as an editor, I had an equally full-time job, building houses. So I would take an old house and I would renovate it and be the general contractor.

and so I was doing that along the way and I was,still single, so I was single and I was working and doing, the editor work and doing the general contracting work. So it was really easy for me to sweep it under the rug, is what I'm trying to say. It was really easy for me to say, oh, Carolyn, you just got way too much going on and you're stressed.

so I got to a point when I was much closer to 50 where I said, I can't do this anymore. And I didn't even know if I could afford [00:27:00] it, financially, but I took a year off work and. Decided that I needed to figure out what was going on because more than the inability to afford it financially, I knew I couldn't afford it personally.

If I didn't do something, I really felt like I was losing my mind. And the burden of showing up in a job every day where I had to be so acutely connected to all of these details when I couldn't even think of a basic word in a conversation, was really becoming overwhelming to me. and then avoidance occurs and you start avoiding situations where you think that you're gonna be, exposed to whatever the hell's going on.

So in that journey of taking a year off, I decided that I needed to really look into my health. I just started making appointments with [00:28:00] doctors and I started to ask friends, and I started to ask pharmacists, and I started to ask anybody who could put me in touch with somebody who was really good at women's health.

I had tried to explore menopause and the information that was associated with it because I never really found anything out, from my mom about it. I think she was in a generation where you just sort of, uh, flowed through it based on what your doctor said and whether you did or didn't take any, um, HRT was usually the knot.

As you know, we've since discovered because of the scare of breast cancer related to estrogen. The early two thousands. So I really, really luckily did connect with a women's health specialist. And for the first time I remember it, Dr. Christine [00:29:00] Hatfield, who we have actually interviewed. I remember sitting in her office for the first time and going through all of the things that I was feeling, thinking she's gonna look at me and say, oh, okay.

Like, where are you going with this? Because to me, it all seemed so random I was like, you know, I'm constipated or whatever it was, but I was just purging all the weird shit that was happening to me and that, and hoping. That somebody would be able to connect a line between all of the dots for me.

And I remember that she looked at me and said, well, you've come to the right place because I can absolutely help you. And it was an amazing moment, but it turned into, you know, that's been probably eight years ago now, it's turned into this journey of really rediscovering who I am now on this center journey that I'm [00:30:00] on.

Being in the center of my life as somebody who now

Diane: Doesn't that sound

Carolyn: it doesn't, it sound better.

Krista: That's. I am all for

Carolyn: I'm at the central point in my life now. And for the first time I wasn't breaking down. And I also was in a position in my life where. I was focused on myself. So now what do I wanna do with all of this knowledge, with all of this power, and with all of this self-reflection that I was gaining at this time.

And it wasn't like I, had a shot in my arse and it cured everything. it was a journey of, figuring out, what I was low on and what my body wasn't creating anymore and healing it. And, all of the things that were affecting me. And the next step for me was to really consider what am I doing with my [00:31:00] life?

And at the age of 53, I retired from my job and decided that. Uh, there is no good time and there is no bad time to take a leap to do something that you think is more in line with your own purpose. And, I think at this age too, and Diane is certainly recently dealt with us, that we lose people who we love and who are really close to us, whether it's a family member or a friend.

And maybe the gift that resonates from the loss is that life is short and the next day carries on even when they're not here anymore. And even when we're looking around going like, why isn't everything else stopping in the streets around me? Because, you are feeling this [00:32:00] deep and sudden loss of.

The love that you have for somebody not being there anymore. And yet life goes on and it's the reminder that it's short. And so what the hell are you gonna do with it? This is up to you to figure that out. Nobody else is gonna figure that out for you. Um, and so that's what I did and I started to learn things that I've always wanted to learn.

I started to, rely on creating, enough money to support myself in different ways. Um, and really just started to do with less. If I had to do with less. But I was doing with more in so many other ways.

I mean, that sounds, you know. Yeah.

Krista: It's

Carolyn: I was doing with more because I didn't have the stress that I had. I was able to wake up every day and, uh, really think about what I needed and what I wanted. And with the [00:33:00] joy of looking forward into my life and thinking about what I could still become, what I still had the chance to become.

And that led us into eventually starting the podcast.

Krista: So I have a question. Was any of that fear-based, like if you could pick a percentage of the emotions that you were feeling when you were moving through all that or sitting in it? Was it excitement? Was it fearful?

Carolyn: I shit myself on a regular basis. I did,

Diane: you know, it's like that, leap in the net shell appear, right. You just make a decision and you have to trust it's gonna work out and you'll make it work out because you don't have another option, you know?

Krista: You have to, yeah.

Carolyn: Yeah, and even though it was scary, I knew that I didn't want to live a life of [00:34:00] regret and the fear of regretting what I didn't do. And that sounds somewhat cliche, but, uh, it was true. The fear of not doing, when I'd seen some really close friends pass around the same time, I was like the fear of not doing something different.

And I didn't even know what it was gonna look like, but I knew that where I was, and it sounds a bit hyperbolic, but it was becoming soul destroying. it was sucking something out of me and not in a fun, dirty way.

Krista: Fair enough.

Carolyn: and Idon't know what point people have to reach to get to that point. Um, when the fear is is less daunting than everything else you're feeling. But that's where I got,

Krista: well I think that's part of the beauty of this time in our life, right? it's different for everybody and we get there in different ways.

Carolyn: yeah,

Andrea: Carolyn, [00:35:00] how do you feel? In your body when you share that story?

Carolyn: one of the things I'm feeling, I feel self gratitude. now I can say it. And feel good about my decision, rather than when I would first explain to people what I was doing, I said, it almost apologetically or with shame. 'cause it was like, what do you mean you left your job? Well, what are you gonna do?

Like, how are you gonna survive? And it was almost like I had to, if I myself wasn't dying of something or you know, then I almost didn't have a good enough reason to leave, my job almost. I felt like I couldn't just choose it because, and

Andrea: Mm.

Carolyn: uh, the propensity for me to try and make almost an [00:36:00] excuse I.

I, I kept coming up every time somebody said, so, what are you doing? Or what did you do? and it wasn't, satisfying for them just to hear me say, I don't know. I guess I'll have to, figure that out.

Andrea: And perhaps that's where the self-authored emerged, right? Mm.

Carolyn: yeah,

Krista: Now I'm connecting you, Andrea, and I'm seeing this common thread between the two of you and your experiences.

Andrea: thank you. I appreciate that because I find the story that you just shared, the story that I know Diane will share. I know the story that Krista has shared. I know the stories that other women have shared. There is this a kinship with other women because there's so much in each of our stories that's unique.

And [00:37:00] then there's so much that is similar or comforting in its familiarity. And so, um. Thank you for sharing your, journey and this self-authored space that you're at and what that looks like.

And you arrived at the point at which you and Diane have this podcast and we do wanna touch on that as well. so perhaps we could, have you, Diane, share your journey,

Diane: Um, so I didn't have any children. I didn't get married yet. I don't have any children that I know of. Ha ha ha. so my friends and family always expected me to do the crazy stuff, and I kind of think at a young age I didn't worry about what they thought.

You know what I [00:38:00] mean? Um, and I worry about what a lot of other people think. But I moved from Canada. I was at a popular radio station, In Canada, we have not as many radio stations as in the US so I left my job and decided to move to the US without a job and get my citizenship. So that was, crazy to people.

Everybody was expecting me to move. I had the going away party and everyone was expecting me to come crawling back two months later. And I definitely felt like it, but I was like, oh no, that's what they're expecting. I'm gonna just make this work in the US Um, so, not having the normal life of getting married and having kids,

I had to work my way through that. and except I'm not having the status quo kind of normal life. 'cause you do have to come to terms with that. women have children, you have kids, a normal family, all that stuff. My life has been nothing but normal and I had to come to a point where, um.

The cup is half [00:39:00] full and embrace that my life is different and it's not normal, but it is kind of hard, to go into society and even at work you don't have a partner or you've never been married and it almost sounds better to be divorced than it is never having been married at all.

You're kind of looked at like, hmm, what's, what's wrong with you? So that kind of was my biggest hurdle to get over. And now I'm like, who cares? I am free, but that's my attitude. But it did take a long time to embrace that, so, um, that's kind of my story. I worked in broadcasting and, um, I work in real estate and in aviation.

And I always had a love of broadcasting and a love of helping people. Um, I like to work on radio morning shows. I love the fact that I was part of somebody getting up in the morning

So I really like that and I really love motivating women to, um, you know, let's say they've been divorced or they've lost a spouse or, the kids have left the [00:40:00] nest. I love encouraging women to get out there and just experience life. So that's just a real motivator for me with our podcast.

I, actually went in for Botox and a doctor burned my face with a CO2 laser and I'm scarred. Um, so I have some permanent scarring and stuff and I just wanted to help other women not kind of go through this. and I became interested in skincare, trying to fix the problem and uh, have a passion for it.

And Carolyn did too. And I was like, well, let's, teach women all about skincare. and I think people look at, skincare as an indulgence rather than a necessity, you know, and it's grow old naturally. And it's like, well, are you growing old naturally? 'cause are you doing the best thing for your skin?

we kind of wanted to flip the script and look at it like. It's not a self in indulgent, it's a necessity. And if you love yourself and love your skin and it's okay to want to feel good as you age. If you want to just age without doing anything, that's fine.

But it's [00:41:00] also okay to wanna take care of yourself So we arrived at the podcast. And a little bit of my motivation is I like helping people. I like to, make people laugh. And, uh, I think that's what, life's about learning, loving, laughing.

That's my three thing. that's my three words there.

Carolyn: I think that when we thought about the podcast, we realized that women are judged regardless of what they do. And if somebody wants to, Have a facelift because they feel better or they want to, have Botox or they just have an interest in, skincare or it seems to be that we are judged no matter what we do.

Diane: I think, and we're saying women are judged. I'm finding that it's women judging other women and I'd love to

I'd love to get to the, yeah, I'd love to get to the root of that problem. Um, so I was in a lawsuit over this and my lawyer said.[00:42:00]

Andrea: Hmm.

Diane: You know you're not gonna win. I said, why?

Like my face is scarred. He goes, they're gonna pick a female jury and nobody's gonna feel bad for a blonde from Scottsdale who got her face burned. And I was like, what are you? I was like, no, no, no. I said, I do a podcast empowering women. I've always worked in radio. I, I have gather women for different adventures.

We go traveling together. Like, no, these aren't the women in my circle. Well, I started a new career working with a lot of different types of people and I was like, ah, I get it. I understand. And then we're starting to look at why are women treating each other like that?

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Diane: that's what I'd really like to solve.

'cause you

Krista: Well, because we've been told for years, that we, don't matter. our opinions don't matter. Our voices don't matter. Just be quiet, go over here, keep doing your thing, but don't talk to each other. don't share. that's where [00:43:00] the danger is for them, right?

It's like if we start. At sharing and talking and loving and caring. Then what will happen?

Andrea: I would be curious if we also think that girls have been raised with a certain level

competitiveness,

Diane: Of Well, we're raised. Yeah, we're raised,

Andrea: competitiveness with one another, with other women.

do you think that happens?

Carolyn: I agree that it's rooted in our ancestral makeup. I think on an evolutionary level, we, we

Diane: To get the mate. To get the mate,

Carolyn: to, yeah, we had to compete to be the one who would find the mate and.

Diane: the shortage start

Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Carolyn: I, and exactly, and I, and at the time it wasn't even based on shortage. It's about, you know, to carry on the species, you had to get the strongest of the guys. It was, there was always something better, um, to make sure [00:44:00] and simply for survival that we are innately and inherently, uh, biologically driven by these things that don't serve us anymore.

Diane: compete for the strongest and the Yeah.

Carolyn: And I think exactly, and the yes in the attention of, so that we would be the one who would, you know,

Diane: Get chosen.

Carolyn: get the genes to carry on those good genes to carry on to the next generation. Um,

Krista: It's

Carolyn: that's going way back,

Krista: yeah, it's interesting what we've grown up believing in society to be true. And what I can only speak for myself what I've experienced, but when we started doing Half Betty, we just started looking around and we were like, all the women in our life are so helpful and so kind and so supportive. So what happened?

That's not where we're living in our lives right now.

Andrea: No.

Carolyn: Mm-hmm.

Krista: we, none of that is [00:45:00] true. So if we all know that, and if we don't just start spreading the word or bring attention to it,

Andrea: That's what we're doing. That's what we're

Krista: it's just not my experience. even growing up, I was always fully supported by, older women, younger women, women of my own age.

I always felt supported and maybe I'm privileged and I'm blessed in that way. Um, I, I'm acknowledging that, but. I know not everybody has had that. Um, but yeah, here we are. Look

Diane: Right. Well, and,

Krista: of us

Diane: I. I,

Krista: coming together, reaching out, saying, Hey, I like what you're doing. to some, it's really scary and it's very bold and brave, but we're just human beings reaching out, saying, Hey, that's really cool.

I like what you're doing. Let's chat. Let's get to know each other. Let's see how we can support each other. Or maybe it's just

Carolyn: Because it's not threatening.

Andrea: Exactly.

Krista: feel normal, right? Like, let's just truly feel like we are all in this together. 'cause [00:46:00] we are and as a bigger picture and all the things that are going on in the world, it's like if we could all just look to our neighbor and assume that they are our friend, if both sides could do that, the world would be such a different place.

Andrea: Mm-hmm. And you wouldn't have juries of women that are not gonna stand up for a woman.

Diane: They'd be like, why are you doing something like that? It's dumb. Very judgy. And I did experience that in my own city too. Um, I remember my Pilates teacher invited me out with a bunch of ladies and my face was blotchy and you could tell there was something wrong. So I was open about it.

'cause I don't want them to go have the same experience. So I share and I'm like, look, I had this CO2 laser procedure. Uh, wasn't my idea was my doctors. I went in for Botox. And they were so judgmental. I mean, how unsupportive can you be?

That's not helpful to anyone. You know, someone tells you what happened to them and then you just say, well, I wouldn't do that.

Carolyn: You shame them

Diane: Good for you. Glad

Andrea: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.[00:47:00]

Diane: yeah, but I, I guess I'm blessed that I'm in the center of my life and only experiencing this now, you know? So I've been really blessed that I've had supportive women, um, throughout my entire life.

And so. That little incident and the occupation I'm in, I've really seen how blessed I am to be, around positive women to be happy. I see a lot of pain in the world, a lot of pain in my job that women are unhappy and I just feel like saying go do what makes you happy. get out there.

You have the power, your life is your choices. Just get out there and do exactly what you wanna do. So when they're sad and angry and jealous and all that stuff, it's all stems from them, being unhappy themselves and you just wanna say, oh my God, this whole life could be totally different for you, you know?

Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Carolyn: Yeah. It's

Andrea: I think that's such a beautiful point as well around, when we do encounter. Women who are projecting, judgment [00:48:00] or other behaviors that don't support other women. Looking at it through the lens of what you talked about at the very beginning, Diane, looking at them as being a little girl. What is it that,shaped that child that told them that others weren't supporting them or others weren't kind or capable of lovely things that they grew up to be somebody who needed to project that out to others. Um, so maybe it's this sense of, like you just said, Krista, if we hold people capable. Of kindness and greatness and then project that energy wherever we go. over time, our hope would be that [00:49:00] we inspire those that haven't quite gotten there yet. By enfolding people into that space of I see you, I see the hurt that's obviously there, or the sadness that's been quieted and shamed and, um, bringing them along as opposed to making them. Wrong or bad, so

Krista: Yeah. Or feel othered, right?

Andrea: yeah. Or feel othered.

Krista: different. but I mean, you know, look at what we're doing with Half Betty. We're providing this beautiful space where, when people are ready, they can come in, share their stories, and, and there's someone there to listen and be curious, right?

Like, that

Carolyn: Yeah. Okay.

Krista: it doesn't happen on a day to day. people are taking five seconds and they're gone. they don't wanna listen and then that makes people be like, oh, well nobody's really interested in me and they don't wanna hear what I have to say and they don't wanna hear my story and therefore I don't matter.[00:50:00]

And that's not true.

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Krista: to provide a space where women so far and some men, Where people can feel like they can tell their story freely, that they're not going to be judged, that they're going to be heard and loved and supported. I think, again, the world would be a different place if we could really just hear people out, and truly listen, not interrupt them, actually sit down with them and hear their full story and listen, because we're not listening to people

Diane: No, we're ghosting people.

Krista: you know, that's become socially acceptable to treat a person, ghost them, like they don't matter. I mean, how hurtful.

Andrea: Yeah. and something that you said really landed and stuck with me just a moment ago too, Diane, when you said that were vulnerable when you shared with this group of women at a class that you went to, I had this procedure done and this is the result of that.

And I just wanted to share that with you. 'cause I don't want that to happen to somebody else. [00:51:00] That is the other piece that we are missing is the embracing of people's vulnerability and acts of kindness and grace when they're sharing something that could make a difference in somebody else's life.

Diane: Mm-hmm.

Andrea: And so

When we get to be in conversations with people they trust us with something that's important or tender or vulnerable, how that is such an enormous, gift to share with another person. Something that's very, tender for us. And so I think there's a space for us to become better receivers of people's

Diane: Absolutely. Absolutely.[00:52:00]

Andrea: tenderness, and to hold that and to be so grateful for somebody sharing that with us.

Diane: how we receive, um, or give apologies in this life. Have you had someone say, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. Have you had any horrible,

Carolyn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Diane: that way. Nobody else feels that way, but sorry you feel that way. Um, so I think how we, yeah. Give feedback. Um,

Andrea: So true.

Diane: absolutely. It has to be,

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Diane: a little more sensitive.

For sure.

Carolyn: Yeah. And vulnerable

Andrea: Yeah. And vulnerable.

Carolyn: the de defensiveness or without the walls, or without the, it's giving and the receiving. Yeah.

Andrea: Yeah. Or when somebody says, I'm incontinent, say, you know what?

Diane: And then you say, I

Carolyn: I just heard this lady,

Andrea: Yeah. You say, you know what? That that must suck. And I'm so sorry. And you know what? I totally relate.

Carolyn: I just piss my pants.[00:53:00]

Andrea: I just like, I did a sit up and I have to go and change my, my knickers.

Carolyn: Exactly. That sounded sexy in a weird sort of way, but

Andrea: I did give myself a thumbs up and that's a real story. So here we go. I gonna take a drink of

Carolyn: Like, goddamn, Barbara Walters here. Cheers to that.

Krista: Oh, cheers. Cheers, ladies.

Andrea: Wow.

Krista: okay. Well, we've solved all the problems of the world.

Andrea: we have, we just have to be kind to each other say what's on our mind, do the things that we want to do that make us happy, author our own stories.

Krista: Yeah.

Carolyn: The day that we are able to walk into this world with kindness focused on ourselves and lovingness on ourselves, and as the beginning of the conversation was, you know, when Diane was mentioning how it's really [00:54:00] hard to say good things about yourself. The day that we as women can walk into this world empowered by self-love is also the day.

That we wish that for others and extend it to others because it doesn't just start in an empty capsule or a vacuum. I mean,

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Carolyn: if I truly am secure with who I am and love who I am first, then you know you. You have that to extend to others and want them to feel the same way,

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Carolyn: about themselves. 'cause it's not threatening to you.

It's not threatening to you to have somebody in front of you who also loves themself and who thinks highly of themselves too. Yeah.

Krista: said.

Diane: not half petty. We're half Betty.

Carolyn: Oh my God. Can somebody put that on a T-shirt?

Andrea: I was just thinking the same thing.

Carolyn: Put it on a goddamn T-shirt. That

Andrea: That's a t-shirt.

Krista: New merch

Diane: I'll [00:55:00] send

Krista: at you. Boop.

Diane: the invoice for the coming up with that idea. Kidding?

Krista: Hey. Yes. See,

Carolyn: Shes trademarking it.

Krista: putting value on

Diane: I just www do, no, I'm kidding. I just bought the domain name for a small fee.

Krista: let's go.

Andrea: Um, can you both, highlight all that you are doing with your podcast,

I need more information.

Tell us the name of your podcast. Can you tell us what you love about it and what you see for the future for it

Carolyn: This is always where we pause

Krista: Diane, were you saying it, was an idea that kind of sparked within you first and then you shared it? Is that kind of how it got started or?

Diane: actually I've always been interested. Well, that's how my interest in skincare, started. And I love to travel. And so Carolyn came to me 'cause she wanted me to help her with a documentary that she was planning with some, [00:56:00] doctor in Paris. And along that path, while we were planning that, we're like, we should do a podcast on this.

We should travel around the world, examine. Women in other countries and their beauty rituals and at the same time discovering what, different cultures idea of beauty is, and examining our self-confidence and self-worth

and along the way, finding fabulous products for women all over the world to feel, wonderful about themselves.

Andrea: And the name of your podcast is,

Carolyn: The devil wears SPF

Andrea: it's so good.

Carolyn: because the devil does wear SPF

Andrea: They would, devil would have to,

Carolyn: Like it's hot down there.

Andrea: it's hot down there.

Carolyn: hot down there. Yeah, exactly. Diane had always. Thrown out there that she wanted to do something where she's traveling and discovering and getting to incorporate all the things that she loves, right?

And

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Carolyn: things and, and then us talking about what we wanna [00:57:00] do together. 'cause we knew that we could do something fun. Um, and our kindred interest for deep diving into anything that was, skincare and, treatments and product related. Um, as we moved through this central part of our lives, it, it, uh, it,

Diane: I just love it every time I hear it.

Carolyn: it, it bloomed.

And, it really came down to the fact that we love each other. we have the same warp sense of humor and,

Diane: And if it inspires women to, let them know they're in a safe space if they wanna take care of their skin and if they want to travel and explore and have adventure, that it's a great time to do that too. So.

Carolyn: Yes. And interestingly enough, that's how we met. We haven't really told that story, but

Andrea: Mm.

Carolyn: full circle. Diane is about to be an Ecuador. She's going to keto. We actually met on a trip to Ecuador when [00:58:00] we went through the Galapagos Islands and we became roommates. we were partnered as roommates.

We didn't know each other.

And we were in a big group, and she and I were the two solo travelers. So they popped us together. And while we were in Ecuador, we were in the Amazon jungle. And one of the parts of the trip was to go through with an ecologist and discover exactly what the jungle, offered, as far as natural, remedies.

And it was fascinating. It was absolutely fascinating. And so we were learning the healing, and protective features of plants and of the serums that were coming from the trees and there were so many things that were natural. And we left with something called dragon's blood, which was pretty cool.

Yeah. All of these things were topics of conversation then, while we were, sitting in our roomas roommates and discovering all of the cool [00:59:00] things, and then realizing that we had this common interest in skincare and finding, the fountain of life, which is what we really want to move into from our podcast.

It's starting with the double wars, SPF as a video cast podcast and moving it into something, a project where we are actually then, as Diane already said, exploring the world, looking for the fountain of youth and discovering what different cultures have as an ideology around beauty. With that, then we learn about what has been transferred down generationally for women in other cultures.

As far as natural remedies, as far as, beauty and products to see, what is the commonality between all of us as women in this world? And [01:00:00] to do all of it with acceptance, with an open-mindedness to the curiosity of it, and with an unabashed unapologeticness that allows us to say, I can do, I can live, I can be, and I can fucking look however I choose to this lifetime. And that's what we hope to bring to everybody.

Krista: Amen. So you are on season two now. That's just launch season two, right? Um,

Carolyn: We

Krista: where are you going from here with the podcast? do you have guests coming up that you're, really excited about? how is it working right now for your season two and also while you're also still talking about this documentary that you wanna make?

How is that all kind of [01:01:00] coming to play?

Diane: Well, we have our motto is, um, devil Wears, SPF Skincare, SoulCare, uh, midlife, we should say Center

Andrea: Oh, center life.

Diane: today. Not today, Satan. So, um, we have an interview coming up with a girl who's actually for the soul care, um, has went through a real struggle and how she overcame it with the power of positive thinking.

We have that interview scheduled and then we also are, breaking down, uh, different beauty treatments for women. We're breaking down if you've never had skincare, a regime before, what to do, uh, breaking down what lasers are, breaking down the different treatments. So we're continuously bringing, um, treatments and breaking them down and kind of educating our audience about all that kind of stuff.

Wading through it all. 'cause it can be kind of confusing. All the lasers, all the treatments. We don't know what ends up so.[01:02:00]

Carolyn: And

Krista: for sure.

Carolyn: We have some founders on our list who are going to be coming in and they're starting new, new full lines of skincare,

Andrea: Hmm.

Krista: so exciting.

Carolyn: focused on. Center live skin, I'm gonna try and work, make it work every time.

Krista: love this. Yes.

Carolyn: and, what they're discovering

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Carolyn: through the different products and the nature of the, um, ingredients that they're using in their products.

And so, um, yeah, we have some,

Krista: Okay,

Carolyn: exciting

Andrea: lots, there's so much there. And what a time to be in this space with access to so many people investing in themselves. One, but also investing in being educated and being, well informed.

I think people are paying attention to not only their [01:03:00] skin,but we are paying more attention to our entire. Holistic package,

Diane: Mm-hmm. Aging

and as Canadians we're like, the darker the better, and we're out there on the one sunny day with the.

Andrea: our tinfoil.

Diane: baby oil on. And so I love that the, youngest generation has this huge awareness about the importance of taking care of your skin.

You know? I like that.

Andrea: yeah. I do too.

Krista: that too. They've got a lot going for them.

Diane: They actually know what's important and where they should be spending their time.

Krista: But thank you for having a place where that kind of information can be found.

Yeah. it's really special. I think what I love the most is the candor, the ability to share this information, share this knowledge in a way that is fun, Because if we're not having fun, what is the

Diane: What are we doing? Yeah,

Krista: what are we doing?

This is

Andrea: That was the [01:04:00] first word you said, Diane, when we said, what

Carolyn: I know that was

Andrea: I wrote it down 'cause it's the top of my page. It says Fun,

Diane: definitely. I.

Krista: So, so

Andrea: adventure.

Krista: please share with our listeners where they can find you. What's the best way to reach out to you?

Diane: YouTube, I'm always pushing the YouTube, but we're on all your favorite places to get, uh, podcasts as well. So, um, we're on Instagram. If you could give us a follow, if you could subscribe to our YouTube channel, it's free. That is the best way to support us. But we're also at all your favorite places to get to get podcasts.

You get the bonus of video on Spotify and, and YouTube, so you know, you can see our beautiful

Krista: And you're

Andrea: we, exactly, exactly.

Krista: your handle is Devil Wears, SPF,

Carolyn: the, yeah. It starts with the, so it's the Devil Wares. [01:05:00] Sbf, and I think it's pretty consistent for all of our accounts and all of

Krista: I mean, a quick Google search brings up all of your pages, so you are doing very well. Um, ladies, thank you so much. Uh, I know that we could keep talking and this is not the end. We will reconvene another time, potentially part two, potentially a collaboration of some kind in the future. Like the,

Diane: The world is our oyster.

Andrea: also, Diane, we're gonna have to do a little follow up to find out how your time in Ecuador, uh, ends up going. So we're sending you

Diane: record it all. Absolutely. Yeah,

Andrea: we

Krista: We're we're standing by.

Diane: for sure. For

Andrea: love

Carolyn: gonna be awesome.

Andrea: We are so grateful to have both of you. It's been so fun. I love that we challenged some words.

We came up with new ones.

and I love that we've opened up this space for people to come to a place,where they're welcome and they're [01:06:00] celebrated and we hold them with gratitude for all that they are.

Aw. Well, thank you for opportunity for having us. Bye.

Diane: yeah, thank you.