Madeleine Shaw

Andrea: [00:00:00] This Spring 2025, I had the pleasure of being introduced to Madeleine Shaw through my friend and Half Betty partner Krista Gruen. When I heard about the incredible work that Madeleine is doing in social entrepreneurship and of course her experience and story of midlife, I was very excited and looked forward to connecting, hearing from, and learning more about Madeleine Madeleine's impact extends well beyond traditional business as she endeavors to creatively engage entrepreneurial tools to catalyze social change, her dedication to fostering growth, be it in projects, relationships, or ideas shines through in everything that she does. It is this nurturing spirit that draws people in and sparks curiosity and creativity.

So today we're thrilled to introduce Madeleine Shaw to our Half Betty community. As a social entrepreneur, author, and mentor, Madeleine has navigated the intersections of business, creativity, activism, and leading countless [00:01:00] impactful initiatives. Along the way. Her insights on social entrepreneurship have been sought out internationally, and her dedication to empowering others, especially those often left unheard, is truly remarkable.

. Madeleine, it's such a joy to have you with us today. Thank you so much for being here as we dive into these transformative stories that shape our lives and careers in midlife.

Madeleine: Hi, friends. I'm so excited. Thank you so much for, welcoming me to your amazing, amazing podcast. I'm honored.

Krista: Oh, thank you. We're honored to have you.

Andrea: The way that we really love to start our conversations with our guests, is to first give the space to share, and it doesn't have to be five.

We say five, but you decide,

but we would love for you to share five words that really bring Madeleine to life for our listeners.

Madeleine: Oh, thank [00:02:00] you. And I think this is such a lovely thing to do. So I, I love language and I think that, yeah, just giving people the opportunity to sort of choose their own words and also frame themselves in ways that aren't their resume is really, really powerful. Um, so with that, my five words are, Creative.

That's a huge part of my identity. And, yeah, I'm creative in so many ways and feel at this time in my life, I'm experiencing a huge resurgence of creativity. Massive.

my second word is generative. And by that I mean that I love growing things. So I'm a pretty serious gardener. Um, not too serious though. it's more like a big science experiment to me, or an aesthetic and science experiment. And anyways, I'll grow anything.

Like people say, oh, do you like to grow annuals or perennials or [00:03:00] vegetables or, and I'm like, I'll grow. I will literally try anything. And, um, and I love that, but I'm also generative in other ways. And, um, in, I would say my career as a social entrepreneur and a writer has been not just about me and my story and my business it's been about other people and finding ways to support them and just build community. Um, word number three is feminist. And feminist is a word that I find. Uh, so disappointingly a lot of people shy away from, like, you hear, I'm not a feminist, but, and then this long string of completely feminist views. They're like, I, you know, reproductive rights really matter to me and I think that, pay equity and childcare, like name the issue.

so I own it. I'm absolutely a feminist and I don't feel the need to sort of, I. [00:04:00] Qualify it or explain it in any way. Like, to me it's a pretty self-evident pursuit of social equity of all forms. but for me, the genesis was absolutely in my identity as cisgender woman. And I have an academic background in feminism.

It's my, have a university degree in feminism. It's something that I just sort of practice, kind of like breathing, it just is a part of me. Um, word number four is instigator. And this relates to leadership so the instigator is kind of an avatar that I came up with when I was writing my book, the Greater Good, and talking about the powers of archetypes.

And I was looking through all these classic archetypes, like the magician and the liberator and the rebel And the word came to me instigator because I'm usually, I'm just someone who's not afraid to start things and just say, [00:05:00] okay, what would happen if we tried this?

And yeah, I just love that energy and like just, there's sort of this, come on, let's go kind of energy that I can really carry sometimes. And last but not least, um, there's a person I call the bad brownie and

Andrea: Okay. This one's, this is great.

Krista: Wait, a person like referring to you or someone,

Madeleine: Yeah, yeah. Myself. Well, I'm supposed to be describing myself, right? And yeah. So, so that came out. Um, I was invited to speak at Creative Mornings Vancouver in December. And as part of that, I, I don't know, I was talking about myself and, and my, my past, my history and I realized that I had really had a long time history of resisting authority and just being kind of non-conformist.

Like I hated going to school, but I looked back further than that and I'm like, I [00:06:00] hated brownies.

Krista: I wasn't sure where you

Andrea: Oh my gosh.

Krista: you know, the brownies like scouts and the, I

Madeleine: Yeah. Yeah. That's the one, that's the one like the most. Virtuous, innocent, lovely, you know, Canadian in this case tradition. Like it, it's a wonderful thing. I do not in any way intend to dis the whole notion of guiding and scouting and all those things. Like it's been, it's, it was great for so many kids, but for me, ho boy, I was probably nine, like, I was not a fully baked human, but I knew that this was in no way for me.

And there's an amazing picture that I included in the presentation of me in my brownie uniform, kind of glaring at the camera quite defiantly.

Andrea: Wow.

Madeleine: like, yeah, like there's something. About her. And that is still in me now. That is, you know, has led to [00:07:00] everything from, you know, being asked to leave the girls school that I attended for 10 years to, um, leading marches and all kinds of events as a university student.

Like all kinds of anti-violence and tons of stuff. I blocked traffic in the middle of the intersection of Bay and Blue Street in downtown Toronto in the late 80's

Krista: Whoa.

Madeleine: And, you know, various things like that. So this kind of rebellious, um, non-conformist, anti-authority and also being an entrepreneur, right?

So that's the other thing is just like, okay, I, I, I don't think I'm gonna do this the same way as a lot of people in the business world might think about it. And then coming to the last sort of example of this embrace of sobriety from alcohol is I think a pretty. Out there thing to do in a lot of ways, and especially when a lot of people were kind of saying, actually, I don't think you have a problem, or I [00:08:00] think you, you know, whatever.

And I'm like, no, I, this is, this is a big thing for me. And so anyways, those are my words, friends. Thank you.

Krista: Oh, they're so good.

Andrea: Wow.

Krista: okay. Can I ask one question about the brownies? did you get into it because of friends? You saw friends and you're like, oh, I wanna try that. Or was it an outside sourcing? We're gonna put you in brownies. This is a thing that you should do.

Madeleine: Yeah, it was a mom thing. So my mom grew up in a small town in southern Ontario, and brownies and girl guides were kind of like the best parts of her life. Like she went to camp and she had friends, and it was this cool thing where they, they got outdoors and they bonded and they did all the things that brownies and guides are supposed to do.

And unfortunately, in my group, it was incredibly urban and it was led by a couple of elder women who really [00:09:00] wanted to teach us about manners and how to be good girls and how to behave and how to like, answer the phone politely and things like that, that I was like, I, I can't even sit still for this.

I just can't do it. but this notion of being good, and being polite and behaving, according to a certain standard of feminine whateverness, um,

Krista: Whatever.

Madeleine: like, this is not gonna happen. Like, I'm not doing it. And I actually skipped out brownies. Um, it was the first time I, of many that I ever skipped out on anything.

And yeah, I mean, it really alarmed my mom and my poor mom. 'cause she just, she had loved it so much. and I'm trying to do it with gardening with my daughter. My daughter is not interested in gardening. I just need to be okay with that. But it was sort of like that, like my mom's dream was a little bit shattered by this very contrarian daughter who is just like, why wouldn't you love this thing?

And because they're trying to tell me to be a certain way that I know with every fiber of my being that I am not,[00:10:00]

Krista: Oh, that's so.

Andrea: maybe. 'cause you said, I, I loved what you said around, um, at the age of nine, which is when you were introduced to brownies, you might not have been a fully baked human.

I quickly wrote down that perhaps in fact you were a fully baked bad brownie,

Krista: Oh,

Andrea: uh,

Krista: that's pretty great.

Andrea: Well, thank you. I will take that. Thank you. Thank you. Um, but, but what it, what occurred to me is when we are young. We are still being formed. And yet this beautiful story that you shared,

Um, you know, I think what we often do believe is that as young people we're not fully baked. But at the same time, you also referenced beautifully that you knew in every fiber of your being that this wasn't for you, which might indicate that in [00:11:00] fact we are fully baked to a certain degree, because we know ourselves as children without all of the influences that we gain over the years of emerging into a adulthood.

Um, and so maybe 9-year-old Madeleine was like, I know more than anything because it's super clear that I am not for brownies and I am not for this particular kind of experience. So it's such a beautiful way to highlight. Um, that we are who we are uniquely from the time that we're born. There's of course, nurture that weighs in an experience that starts to play in and layer up on who that, who that form is.

But gosh, do we ever have a sense of self from such a young age? Uh, so that highlights that so bad. Brownie it up. Love it.

Madeleine: Well, I love that. And Andrea, I would agree with you And just to reflect on that a bit more deeply, like I do [00:12:00] believe that as young people, we, we have a very strong sense of identity and then we just sort of get confused by all these social expectations. And girls are supposed to be a certain way and boys are supposed to be a certain way.

And, you know, there's gender, there's class, there's a million things layered into that, and these expectations in the education system and so on. yeah. And I actually ended up many, many, many years later producing an event series called G Day that was for girls at more or less that age. That was the message of which was essentially like, you are already perfect.

We're good. There is no test, there is not, we're not here to teach you anything. We're not, we're just here to celebrate you. Exactly. But, you put that so beautifully and thank you for, for saying that.

Krista: Can you share with our listeners a little bit more about gday and how long it it went for, the idea behind it is really interesting.

Now that we know this bad brownie story, and I [00:13:00] wonder how much of that experience contributed to you saying, this needs to happen and I'm gonna be the one to do it.

Madeleine: Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean I think there's definitely a thread that goes all the way from bad brownie through, um, my obsession with periods and menstruation. I'm a huge fan of, are you there? Gods me, Margaret, Judy Bloom's book and Margaret's character was really important to me. And, um, so Gday was born of, of kind of an adolescent fixation that I had on, um, menstruation in particular, but puberty more generally.

So just the idea, like I, in my own mind, I associated it with becoming an adult woman, and that to me seemed like the most interesting, powerful, amazing, beautiful thing that, that anyone could possibly [00:14:00] be, like, it was like somebody saying, okay, you're gonna become an astronaut and you're gonna go to the moon.

And I was like, me, how is this ever, how am I gonna get from this little awkward, skinny person to somebody who's that amazing? And anyways, so at the time, and I, I almost wanted there to be kind of a ritual, like something that would let me know when I was there. Like, okay, sure. Start my period.

That's fine. Um, but I wanted more, I wanted information, I wanted connection, I wanted community. I imagined being welcomed into a room full of adult women who would sit me down and gently stroke my hair andexplain everything to me and show me the ropes and.

I said that I never told anybody about that, like when I was a kid. 'cause it sounded ridiculous. Like I'm not part of any cultural tradition that would do something like that. And so it was just this fantasy. [00:15:00] I started my period, it was kind of awful. And, and I just locked it all up and put it away inside me.

And then one day in 2013, I was invited to speak at Pechakucha Night in Vancouver. And I had to answer the question how I would change a city if I could, which seemed kind of like a weird question to me because normally it'd be like, I, like at that point I already had a very well established career in the menstrual health and equity field.

And cities were something that, you know, other people dealt with, not me. And um, but when I was asked that question, I thought about it. This vision came back to me like from my, I. You know, bad brownie self if she and Margaret and whatever, and the whole thing. And I was like, I wanna make that thing like, and at the time my daughter was nine, if you can believe that.

And, uh, this

Krista: Ooh. Ooh, ooh. Shivers, goosebumps

Madeleine: I know, and, and this relates so strongly to what Andrea was saying about those [00:16:00] truths, those things that we know when we're kids, that we might go, ah, that's just a hobby. Or, ah, that was kind of a dumb idea. Or, oh, I'm sort of embarrassed about that. It's like, no, like, so Margaret came back, this whole thing came back and as it happened, so I told the story about Margaret and this whole thing in front of whatever, a thousand people in the Vogue Theater.

Not to declare any kind of intention, but just to be like, this happened to me. I believe this, whatever. And if I could change a city, then I'd do this. Anyways, I ended up meeting a woman in the audience who had been in the audience two weeks later, who is an event producer and like serious event producer, but I didn't know that.

And she came up to me and she said, Hey, I was at Petchakucha Night, and I thought, you know what you're saying about this event for girls? Like, I'm just curious when you're gonna do it.

Krista: When you're gonna do it. Ooh. And the instigator in, you fired up.

Madeleine: she did.

And she's like, keep me posted, And gave me her business card. [00:17:00] And I went home and I looked her up and it turned out she produces the Symphony of Light and the Squamish Festival We're not talking some casual part-time. Oh, let me plan a dinner party kind of event planner.

No, no, no. And I was like, oh my God, who is this person? And if she believes in this idea and she believes in me and she's willing to help, I'm doing it. And so just as kind of like, just to see what would happen in, it was on April the 28th, 2014, we produced the first event and 250 girls came. Yes.

Krista: Wow.

Madeleine: we had this amazing day, we danced and we had all these amazing presentations and activities

we just had this amazing time and then it turned into something bigger and we ended up, producing 13 events until COVID

Krista: Wow.

Madeleine: across

Krista: when you say 13 events, was it once a year or was it just, [00:18:00] um, like

Madeleine: it was

Krista: did that look like?

Madeleine: Yeah, it was organic and so we would just find different venues and, spread it around to different communities. And so we had, in Vancouver, we had one at the as Smiley Center in Burnaby. We had another one at the Polygon Gallery in North Vancouver. We had another one in partnership with the Squamish Nation at the Chief Joe Mathia Center.

somebody found me on, the magic of the internet. We ended up doing three events in Toronto. we did it in Victoria three times. and it was great. And we actually had three events scheduled in 2020

Krista: Shoot.

Madeleine: and that kind of took the wind out of it. it just wasn't gonna happen after that. it was a registered charity. it was beautiful. And I'm actually funny. This is so funny, guys. Um, I'm actually talking to two women later today in Vancouver who want to. Take a look at doing it here again,

Krista: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrea: maybe it was a pause as

Krista: Just to pause.

Madeleine: [00:19:00] website's still live. People can look at the videos. Definitely Watch the videos, grab a tissue.

Krista: us the website.

Madeleine: It's at GDAY world. So that's, that's gda y world. And watch the videos. Just

Krista: Yes.

Madeleine: watch the videos.

Krista: Yes,

thanks for taking a second to explain that because that's, uh, I just, I just didn't want you to mention it and not touch on it, but we've already talked that much to dig into that we're most likely gonna do a two-parter with you, that I think that's just what we need to do

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Krista: because we also wanna talk about something else.

Andrea: So I, like Krista said, know that we have a part two to this conversation and I couldn't be more just so like. Levitating, it feels like off my seat, in the excitement of knowing what you have have been [00:20:00] building and that has taken a bit of a pause, but has now that little spark of knowing that it needs to come back because this is such a beautifully important piece of what young women and women need.

your story is so vast in all the different parts that have played into where you are today. And one of the pieces that you would love to speak to is about a catalyst and then another, transformation moment.

And you felt that you would love to, open that up a bit for our listeners so that you could share your story and help again find those connections to people out there who perhaps feel that relatability in their own stories. So if you would take us into, one of the catalysts of transformation in this beautiful and wild midlife.

Madeleine: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, [00:21:00] well, it absolutely is. And as I approached menopause, I, so I've spent my career in the menstrual health space. So it's been all about periods. It's not products, whatever, menstrual equity. No, no, no. And so I was like, hmm, what's it gonna be like for me not to menstruate anymore?

Like, how is that gonna go? and what would that mean in terms of my identity? but I was also curious because I, I sort of see menopause as kind of the opposite of puberty. So there was that opportunity for transformation that I referred to of that childhood, to adolescence, the G day kind of thing.

It's like sort of thinking of it as the other end of the rainbow and feeling very, very curious. Assuming the rainbow starts with puberty and kind of ends with menopause, then like, what, what happens? 'cause it's cool, it's interesting like, um.

Krista: that rainbow. You can really see it. Yeah. On the other end. Yeah. And the gold that lies. Woo-hoo.

Madeleine: right. That's right. There's gold at both ends. And

Krista: Yes.

Madeleine: point of, for you two, like that is what's so powerful, but what you're, [00:22:00] the message of Half Betty and so on. So I would say my Half Betty story, finds us in COVID and we all have our stories about what life was like in COVID.

And, um, for me, G Day had ended because of COVID and I decided to write a book. And so I was kind of grieving that and going through like the night sweats and the hot flashes, um, physically but a thing that just became increasingly present in my mind was a concern that I had with my relationship with alcohol.

So like a billion people, I love drinking wine. It was so good and it was so fun. And having drinks with friends and I love cooking. And so there was this really profound association happening there. But during COVID, I started to feel like something shifted for me from being celebratory and kind of an additive quality that it had to being [00:23:00] something that I wanted every day.

That kind of became sort of a companion. Like it became not just like, yay, cheers. Here you go. It was more like a consolation or a reward. something that I felt like I deserved for getting through another day of this. Extremely confusing, Just perplexing, sad, scary time in life. And so I started playing around, I guess before that, experimenting with dry January, I think even then at the back of my mind, I was like trying to answer the question of whether I had a problem with alcohol or not, or whether I was okay because.

in my thinking back then, that was sort of what defined it. Like, like alcohol was either something you were addicted to or you were not. Um, there were no other health considerations about it in my mind at all. I didn't really know anything about alcohol, to be honest. like I know a thousand times more, 10,000 times more than I did in, let's say 2017, [00:24:00] 2018.

Um, anyways, I started doing dry January and what I noticed is that my hot flashes were way easier and I started sleeping better and I had more energy and I was like, oh, that's interesting. So, so in other words, we know now that like through, you know, the natural process of aging That our ability as humans to process alcohol, you know, just to metabolize it, basically to work it through your system is diminished.

And so I was sort of seeing like at, at once the kind of the negative side of that when I was just, and I'd have like, you know, sort of one to three glasses of wine a night depending on the kind of day that I had had. And I don't know, I, it was just this, this thing that more and more and more, so the catalyst moment on this whole thing was I decided in

1. Yeah. Like crazy. This is me being crazy. Okay. So I decide to do a hundred day alcohol free [00:25:00] challenge in the beginning of 2020.

Krista: And that started because you had done dry January and then you just kept it going,

Madeleine: Yeah. So at that point I had an annual practice of doing dry January. Um, because I.

Krista: or so.

Madeleine: Yeah. And, but it became, it was sort of a shift. Like I recognized that doing dry January, to me was proof that I was okay. So it was like a check mark and like, I'm good. I'm going back into my, you know, sauvignon blanc or whatever.

Anyways. Um, so, we get to COVID and everything's just a little clearer and a little sharper, and I'm feeling a little more perimenopausal and I'm gonna do this a hundred day challenge because that'll really, then I'll really know what's what So that went really well and I felt amazing. I was like, oh my God, if I felt good after 30 days, I am flying, I am ecstatic. I'm so happy. Um, sleeping beautifully, energy. My skin is [00:26:00] beautiful. Oh my God. Anyways, probably a bunch of things I made up and thrown in there just to kind of give myself some energy.

But anyways, day 101, and of course at the back of my mind I'm like, should I just keep going? Like, would it be worth it after? You know, if I'm feeling this good after a hundred days, I'm feeling so happy and so free and so fantastic and oh my God, and then I could stop worrying about this whole, am I an alcoholic, am I not?

Um, day 101 was my daughter's 15th birthday and it's COVID, and I knew that there was a cold bottle of champagne sitting in the fridge.

Krista: Yep.

Madeleine: So anyways, long story short was I ended up drinking most of it. And you know, I've done my a hundred day challenge, I'm good, I'm fine, whatever. And I woke up. In fact, I knew from the first sip that I took of that drink, [00:27:00] I knew that I was not okay.

And it was like, how much more obvious does this need to be to you?

That this is a choice you need to make for yourself, but you are still so stuck in this that you can't let it go. anyways, it kind of broke my heart that it was her birthday and I was like, okay. That was the moment of truth. we can keep playing games and we can keep doing challenges and we can keep doing 30 days and blah, blah, blah.

But stop. We're a grownup now. We're a wise woman. And, uh, so with that recognition, I quit one year and four days later. April 14th was my sobriety date.

Krista: Oh wow.

Madeleine: Yeah. So it's recent. And, uh, anyways, it was not an easy thing to do. It was a hard thing to do and I grieved it and I, I cried a lot and I, like, it was hard.

It's life changing and I, yeah, but it's one of the best things I've. Ever, ever done. [00:28:00] And I don't think I could have done it without this kind of idea of being a wise woman

Krista: Hmm.

Andrea: Um.

Madeleine: and to me, which is, that's the menopausal, like, that's how I think about it. Was, is this through this archetypal lens of the, and you said wild earlier, Andrea And I agree.

Like she's wise and she is wild. And in fact, those are the two names, that she carries this archetype. And so yeah, it was, that was massive. It was scary and heartbreaking and kind of wild. But I did it and I, and today I feel amazing.

Krista: How do you feel about sharing that in-between time where it said, so the birthday, 101 days, the first sip, and then you said it was a year after that you were like, that's it, I'm done. I'm actually really interested in hearing a little bit more about that journey between that time and did you seek support?

Did you start asking questions like, [00:29:00] yeah, what was that like?

Madeleine: reading and listening to a lot of podcasts, and if anybody out there is going, oh yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm kind of feeling this too, or I'm a little bit nervous about this, or I'm not sure about where I'm at with alcohol. Um, or you just wanna know more about it.

Read a book called Quit Like A Woman by Holly Whitaker, that book became A form of Bible to me, honestly. And I learned so much from it. And, it just helped me work through all the social preconditioning that I had around what it meant to be an addict, and what it meant to be an alcoholic, and how, I realized in my mind it was this terrible moral failing.

Like it meant that I was not a good person. I was weak. Um, and then I also had other people try and tell me that I wasn't an alcoholic and that I didn't have a problem. And that was so perplexing because there's this stereotype like, it's somebody who's falling down in an alley and has kind of lost everything.

and I was like, no, I feel [00:30:00] like I'm kind of finding something. I, yes I am losing something, but that's something is not something I want in my life anymore. At least not in this way. And so it was realizing throughout that year that this wasn't fun for me anymore. And I was sort of going through the motions and seeing if I could quote unquote, moderate.

so I would literally, I had a little glass, measuring glass and I would measure up my five ounces of wine, which isliterally an inch and a half of wine and see if I could just,drink one glass of wine a day, then that would be fine, right?

but just even the act of measuring it was so ugh. Like I just hated it. there's no spontaneity. You're supposed to light your hair down and you're having fun and you're having some laughs with your girlfriends and you're book club and you, whatever. You're chilling.

And it was not that for me anymore. I'm like, I can't. I can't be with this. If I am, if I let myself drink the way I wanna drink, then I feel terrible. I wake up at three o'clock in the morning, [00:31:00] I'm exhausted. I'm dehydrated. I have kind of a headache. I feel shitty, and I am, this isn't, I can't do that.

And I also hate this little Nicky picky, way of controlling it. And so that was, that year was about getting to the place of like, oh, I can't do this. this is an all or nothing thing for me. And, um, I probably read about a dozen books about alcohol. and especially women's sobriety stories and recovery stories are fascinating, and I learned that yes, of course there are these cases where you drive drunk and with your kid in the back and you, you know, crash your car.

Or there's some kind of like this rock bottom idea that you have to, you know, hit some point that is so drastic. Like in my case, I felt heartbroken that I drank most of a bottle of champagne on my daughter's birthday in COVID. Like most people be like, and who [00:32:00] cares? That is not a rock bottom, that is not harming anyone in any significant way.

But it was my, it was the moment I told myself the truth, right? And so I sort of think of that as rock bottom. So there was this struggle that went on for a year. And I knew I was ready or close to being ready, but I didn't know, like, how do you set a date? Like how do you choose when that would be

And finally, one day, I signed on to, a group online because of course, like everything was online, right? It was suddenly so available. to find a sobriety group online is like, it, it would take you five seconds now. Right? And whereas before, like I didn't wanna go to some church basement at a certain time and I just couldn't deal with that

Krista: Even just the stereotype around exactly what you just said.

There has to be other options out there for you to start talking and sharing. I'm so glad that it happened in that digital time when everybody was a little bit more accessible,

Andrea: Hmm.

Madeleine: Yeah. [00:33:00] Yeah. And it was interesting because during COVID it exacerbated the problem, but it also made the opportunity to connect with other people to get better, so much easier. And so, and this is another sort of really catalytic moment. so after having, you know, consumed alcohol for however many decades of my life and I loved it,

Um, there, that was the moment of truth. So one day I was like, okay, I'm gonna go to this online sobriety group and see what it's like. And led by this amazing woman called Laura McOwen, who's another incredible writer in the space. so she created this group called The Luckiest Club. And so I went online and there was a speaker and. Her name was Hope.

Krista: Oh, of course it was.

Madeleine: Of course it was. And Hope told her story and her hope's story was pretty devastating.

Krista: Hmm.

Madeleine: And she was an American woman and a woman of color and she came from just a really, [00:34:00] really tough background and her story was incredibly moving and I just sat there and I was like, if she can do it, like I just wanted to be her so badly.

She was celebrating her one year sobriety anniversary.

Krista: Mm

Madeleine: And I was like, oh my God. Like I want her and I wanna be her. I wanna be this woman. I want. And I imagine myself a year into the future, going to the same meeting and celebrating my one year sobriety. Anyways, it was such a powerful moment. It still makes me feel emotional and for real, like her name was Hope.

Krista: Hmm.

Andrea: Hmm. It's beautiful.

Madeleine: So I just, after that I was like, this is now, this is my now moment. it does not get better than this. I am under no illusions. There are no doubts. I do not wanna pour myself some crappy little five ounce glass of wine ever again in my entire life knowing [00:35:00] that I can't make this work. And so I just trusted that I would be okay and started telling people.

That I was quitting and why? And that was also very cathartic as like owning it of, you know, like telling my parents, telling my husband, um, you know, these people, my friends, who I would normally drink with. Like, there was this whole process and doing that, that was really scary to me. But once I got used to it, it was like so liberating and it was just like, this is who I am now, and I'm, I'm good.

This is just what I need to do for me.

Krista: There's so much, reference, you know? as I was raising my boys, I have twin boys, they're nine. And, um, I remember those tough times, you know, and hopping on Instagram and seeing other moms and that culture

I got wrapped up into that [00:36:00] moment of like, oh, you know, the mommy juice. And had a hard day. I deserve a drink. And I'm just wondering if you can speak to that a little bit, because it is a powerful thing that you can get swept up in and you don't even realize it's happening

I mean, it's toxic alcohol. it's not good for you, but yet. Society and influencers and people are selling it in a way where it is good for you. And so I'm really fascinated to hear more. I'm sure you have lots to speak about on that subject.

Madeleine: Yeah, I do. it's pretty insidious actually, the way there's this massive multi-billion dollar industry that markets a product. To specifically women. I mean, you can go and buycupcake wine and book club wine and,it's kind of marketed to you as a mark of liberation.

I see so many photos of women on Instagram and they're like, cheers. And I got my wine [00:37:00] and I got my thing, and it's supposed to sort of symbolize like, I'm free, I'm kicking back. I'm rewarding myself because I am awesome and I work hard and all those things. And there's so much truth to it because the women, they do work hard.

They work their asses off. We know what it's like to raise children. We know what it's like to run businesses. We know what it's like to work for a living. We know all those things. and how do we give ourselves that moment of like, you are awesome, you are special, you do deserve a break.

You like all of that stuff is so legitimate. And then it's taken and twisted into, so here you go. Here's your glass of ethanol. To which by the way causes cancer and a ton of other diseases. like, it's this sort of weird kind of perversion. And I think what we need to keep is we need to support our nervous systems and we need to celebrate ourselves and we do deserve those things and connection with other people.

And, [00:38:00] um, but alcohol to me is, it's almost like a false way of doing that. Like, we believe that it, it's true. And that, that we have these intense conversations and we kind of get there, um, socially with other people and we relax and we do, and there's this association we build in our minds of like, okay, if I wanna feel it relaxed at a party.

I need to have alcohol or, or go on a date or, take the edge off. Taking the edge off is huge and that was huge in COVID. my perspective on all of that now is to get really curious about the edge, to get really, really curious what is it that we actually need?

What would actually be life giving? And would be authentic. Like do we need to set a boundary? Do we need to take some space for ourselves? Do we need to nourish ourselves? What do we need? Exercise? [00:39:00] Do we need to tell the truth about something? like, there's a million things, right that can kind of be masked that, that bring us to this edge of like, ugh, like I've kind of had it and I just wanna escape from this feeling.

I guess I've become kind of a student of myself and going, when do I need rest? When do I need to tell someone to get lost? When do I just need to say no to one more thing? When do I need to take space when, like, I'm so much more attuned to those things now that I used to just kind of blur over with a couple of glasses of wine that at the time felt great until it did not feel great.

And it came to feel like I didn't have a choice anymore. Like I was just doing this thing and listen, I'm no saint, don't get me started about my relationship with sugar, Um, like, I love, [00:40:00] like I, I get it. live in this world too, and it's not easy and it's hard but sometimes I just feel better really feeling all my feelings now, as messy as that can be and as sort of disruptive as it can be to sort of go, actually I don't wanna go to that thing.

I am closer to the edge. I am the edge. At this point, and that's not always a comfortable place to be, but to me it feels safe and true and real and yeah, very vulnerable, very raw.

Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Madeleine: But I'm up for it. I'm up for it because this is the magic of Half Betty.

To me, it's like I've never felt this comfortable of just laying down boundaries and telling people what I really think and not apologizing and yeah, so

Krista: It's a great place to in

Andrea: I love that.

Krista: I'm glad you're here. Yeah.

Andrea: when we think about what we talked about [00:41:00] earlier young people show up arguably as authentically who they are. Or as close to authentic to who they are in childhood, because it is yet to have all of the layers of experience and society's impacts and influences. And so those young people are often perhaps living also at that edge because they are the version of themselves that they are. And then as we move through life and we become adults and we have more and more experiences and we are exposed to more and more, we often start looking at creating versions of ourselves. And then we look for the tools [00:42:00] that will help us create the versions. we believe we need to be or that feel better because they are removing something that doesn't feel comfortable. and I think perhaps alcohol is a tool that helps us create a version or many versions, and it then becomes our partner.

Uh, for, for many of us it becomes a partner that delivers a version that is moved away or shifted from, as you so beautifully described, that edge, which is that original, genuine, authentic soul that we were when we were young. Um, and I can only imagine for so many of us that it is alcohol, but it is all these other things as [00:43:00] well.

And. Once we start, if we are, are fortunate to have inspiring folks that we connect with, we start to recognize that going back to the version that we were when we were young is actually exactly where we need to be. I think that there's a deep connection between that and midlife for women because of the underlying experience of hormones. And our years of childbearing and then our years of now no longer childbearing. There's a direct correlation between the beginning of the rainbow, the end of the rainbow, and the gold being that we can go back to peeling away all the versions that [00:44:00] we've added and go back to our beautiful original bad brownie selves. Full circle. Full circle.

Madeleine: Yeah. Yeah. I would, I There's so much truth in what you're saying and you, you put it so beautifully and yeah. I mean, most of us start drinking when we're teenagers, right. So, and it is that sort of marketed to us as you'll be more sophisticated and you'll be more confident. And I also, um, started smoking cigarettes at that age too.

And those were a big thing for me as well, and for a long time. Um, yeah, just the idea that I needed to be a different person. I needed a crutch, I needed a friend, I needed a, like if I was gonna go to a party or if I was gonna date someone or whatever, like anything that was in any way challenging. Um, and that it [00:45:00] does change you.

Like it literally changes your brain chemistry, right? So you're not thinking. The same way, or it's different parts of your brain, are being used so you're more rational. Uh, the prefrontal cortex kind of gets taken offline by the, by ethanol, which is what makes it feel fun, right? Because you're not quite as constrained

but you can make some pretty poor decisions as well,

Maybe it's okay to whatever, I don't know, but, or maybe I, you know, it's okay for me to eat this horrible food or, or whatever. I don't know what that is. But, um, yeah, it's an, I I love that your sort of theory of those, those. Adult, I'll call them adult mothering years of being this, like, we're just trying to deal with the world and, and those personas can really sometimes help us.

Like we need a new persona when we become mothers. It's like, who's this person that has these little people hanging onto me and like, what does this mean? I need to keep them alive. And oh my God, like, like. These are hard things [00:46:00] and, but thi this is what I love about this time, when we can kind of surrender the things that aren't like partly, you know, we don't have those little kids hanging onto us and we can think more about ourselves and our needs.

and I guess what I see when I look around is so many women our age stepping into leadership, stepping into projects that they've been maybe putting off, having second or third careers, having, um, just kind of being more powerful. And it, and it is because I think that there's this surrendering, and in my case it was about alcohol and you know, it's probably been about some other things too.

And it's obviously a very personal process, but, um. That's why I'm so excited about what you're doing and what I see and the things I wanna do too. Like I wanna keep this conversation going in other ways and explore different topics. I'm more about the live event thing than a podcast per se, but, uh, [00:47:00] like I, I feel in every, like, again, this, this full body sensation, like I feel everything that you are about and I am just committed to sharing that because I think the world needs us.

Krista: Yes,

Andrea: absolutely.

Madeleine: us and Yeah. And for us to fully Yes. Yes. Well, it's your whole message, right? And. But we need to, we need to take care of ourselves and we need to like really take care of ourselves. And I'm, you know, we get fed the whole, well that looks like anti-wrinkle cream or whatever, nonsense. It's like, no, that's not it.

It's about speaking our truth. It's about, taking care of our bodies in ways that nourish us, that aren't about the, trying to age anti-aging. I'm allergic to that.

Krista: it's, you know, trying to strip away the sell, the marketing, the message that someone needs to put out there in order for them to benefit and make money.

Madeleine: Yeah.

Andrea: I think it's really a important piece [00:48:00] because I imagine that a lot of people experience it but don't even realize it, or why it's uncomfortable.

you had said, Where you were at in terms of moving away from and choosing a new way to be. Some folks feeling as though they were helping, tried to suggest that in fact, you don't have a problem,

it's their, Love of you that is creating this blind spot I imagine. But I was curious how you navigated those conversations or those friendships, or those relationships with family, when you found that people were not wanting to see what you were sharing,

Madeleine: Yeah. that is such a huge, thing and I, and thank you for asking that. So in my experience, the number one thing that [00:49:00] happened when I told people that I thought I had a problem the biggest one was they would actually immediately flip the whole thing around to being about their relationship with alcohol.

And they'd be like, oh, yeah, yeah, I, you know what? I only drink X, Y, Z, and I'm, I'm like,This isn't about you.

Krista: It's not

Madeleine: I am trying to tell you one of the most important vulnerable, scary things that I've ever told anyone in my entire life. And you're somehow making that some kind of judgment about you and your behavior and your relationship with whatever substance

I need you to listen to me and for this not to be about you and for you to believe me and take what I'm saying at face value and ask how you can [00:50:00] help. It's like so many things in life when someone comes to you and is like, I'm having this problem, this thing is hurting me,

You don't say, I don't think it's that bad. stop. what if your kid, comes home, says, I'm being bullied by someone you wouldn't say, oh. I'm not bullying anyone or something, we just have this weird tendency to kind of reflect,or bounce off other people, like a mirror or something.

And I found myself saying to a couple people, I need your full attention right now and I need for this just to give me 10 minutes and I need this just to be about me. It can be about you after that and I'll give you all the time in the world, but please, right now.

And there were some other people who kind of ignored it. Like they just didn't wanna hear it and acted like there was nothing there. And that was kind of the hardest for me too, because again, it's like you have no idea, if you have an addiction, what it takes to get sober. Is huge. I think most people [00:51:00] know that, but if they don't think you really have a problem, they're almost like, well you're kind of like sober light or some kind of, it wasn't that bad kind of thing.

And there's this diminishment but I think it scares people. Like if somebody doesn't wanna look at their relationship with something, they kind of don't wanna hear about the story of someone getting sober. and or they perceive it somehow as a judgment against them when it has nothing to do with them.

And so that's it. It still makes it kind of weird and hard, like people still do that. So I guess I would just ask anyone listening, if someone comes to you with something like this, just believe them and honor them and ask what's going on with that? be curious. It's safe.

Like addiction is so stigmatized. It's like we assume that it's something you should be ashamed of. And so of course you wouldn't wanna, like, you guys are asking me great, great questions and, and it took me so long to get to this place though, where I could be like, yes, I have a problem. It was hard. I like everything [00:52:00] I've just shared with you.

And it's so valuable for other people because it's like, of course alcohol is an addictive substance by definition And yet socially we're like moderate and be responsible and do all this stuff, but it's addictive, so you're literally playing with fire the entire time. And then we blame people when they get addicted.

what? You're served this substance at every social event you can possibly imagine. You're told it's the elixir of happiness and sexiness and fun and sophistication and all these things. And then when one day it's got you, you are blamed for not being responsible. And to that, I say, screw you guys.

Krista: Yeah. Yeah.

Madeleine: it's not fair.

Andrea: Yeah.

Madeleine: not right.

Krista: so now that you're sober, [00:53:00] is there moments still where you are at an event, maybe it's a new person or maybe it's somebody that you know and you've known for a long time. Are, do people act strange around you? is their behavior different when they find out like, oh, do you wanna drink?

And then you're like, Nope. No. Thank you. And I'm interested to, to hear how that is for you.

Madeleine: Yeah, it feels a hundred percent normal now, but they're often, like restaurants are sort of weird. I will always call a restaurant in advance and ask if they have any non-alcoholic wine. 'cause I love drinking wine. and all these restaurants, they are like, oh, we have San Pellegrino soda or some, and I'm like, I don't want San Pellegrino soda.

I don't know, people seem to do occasionally get weird about it. because I'll, I'll bring my own non-alcoholic wine, to places and then somebody wanted to charge me a corkage fee a while ago, and I, and I'm like.

You don't even sell this product. Like this isn't [00:54:00] even, like if you, I would happily I would pay you your $17 a glass or whatever if you actually served a decent non or any non-alcoholic wine, like, oh my God. Anyway, so there is that kind of weird stigma and I can get a bit resentful and it can make me sort of frustrated, but I don't, for the most part, I feel fine.

I don't love being around people who are drunk and or starting like anything more than two to three drinks. I, I've just feel like I'm not on the same page.

Krista: Yeah.

Madeleine: As other people, I don't laugh at the same jokes. I don't feel like I'm in the same conversation and that can feel a little bit lonely.

I never feel tempted. I never feel like, oh, I'd really like to have a drink. it's like a scary monster that I escaped from. And so I'm not like, Ooh, maybe I should, maybe that scary monster was actually kind of cool and fun.

The scary monster is just the scary freaking monster. And there's [00:55:00] no, I don't miss the scary monster because that's what it was, or that's what it became to me. and something that really legitimately threatened my wellbeing.

so yeah, mostly I just kind of go, people are just doing their thing, but also so many more people are sober now or sober curious and so I get to go to Amazing sober events, and I love them and I love the whole community that's growing up around that and the conversations around that.

So it's increasingly normalized. I picked a really good time to get sober, I would say, because there's so many cool,groups and books and podcasts and events and beverages and all this stuff.

Krista: Yeah. it's interesting you say that because we had a small launch party for our podcast when it came out, and, as you do your planning an event and, the subject of food and beverage comes along. And Andrea and I sat there and we're like, do we need alcohol? Like, it went from, we should get a sponsor, we need a wine and a beer [00:56:00] sponsor.

And then it turned fairly quickly into do we need it? Is it necessary? And we decided to not have alcohol at all.

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Krista: At all. We,

Madeleine: Way to go. That's amazing. That's

Krista: the call and we were like. No, we don't need it. And why?

Andrea: Yeah,

Krista: Because it's like that Andrea calls it her baby rebel. You got like, you know, the brownie thing going on, but

Andrea: Bad brownie and baby Rebel.

Madeleine: Let's party Andrea.

Andrea: Yes, we will. With our non-alcoholic wine.

Madeleine: That's right.

Krista: know, it's like, okay. So anyways, so it was, it was interesting and it was really interesting also to be there at the event. I was almost waiting for somebody to say, where's the wine? Or Why is this non-alcoholic party? Like, I was almost waiting for somebody to complain, but because it was our launch party and we could plan the [00:57:00] event how we wanted to plan it, it was full of the most incredibly supportive family friends that we just knew, this is great.

This is the decision we're gonna make. And it, it just felt so good. And yeah, I just, I kind of, yeah, just wanted to share that because it's really possible you don't have to have an event and have and serve alcohol. It doesn't, it's not necessary to have a good time.

Madeleine: totally. And then you remember everything better.

Andrea: a hundred percent.

Madeleine: you know, the, the flip side of the edge, I think is that my ability to experience pleasure and joy and like, like I laugh more now that I'm sober, like in the, there's just this kind of like, I'm more, feel all, I feel it all, um, to quote.

Krista: Feist. Yeah.

Madeleine: That's right. Um, and you know, sometimes that can be scary and hard and other times that can be like just wild. And I do Andrea, I feel like [00:58:00] I'm 15 again. I really do. Like, before I started drinking that kind of wild and I got in lots of trouble at school too, and I like it just this wildness and I love connecting with that energy and I love that you are, you know, you see that in your daughters and you see that as, you know, in yourself too.

And I think that when we're not kind of mitigating or obfuscating or trying to be a different person or consuming a substance or just trying to get in there somehow, it's like those feelings are available to you

Andrea: Yeah.

Madeleine: in a far more, to me, immediate and intense kind of way. And, uh, that I've written about it a little bit too from the perspective of intimacy without going into greater detail on that as well.

And, uh, it's kind of cool.

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Krista: Hmm. That's beautiful.

Andrea: It's perhaps like space. I mean the, the, the ongoing ripple effect of, [00:59:00] being the version of ourselves that we are, when we start out in this world free of the things that come along and kind of create different versions, um, that. Complete, or, you know, wholeness and honesty is, to me it is. That is addictive. And so to me, that's the replacement of the actual things that are addictive, like alcohol and caffeine and tobacco and drugs. the addiction is in being completely, wild and un abandoned. Un abandoned, abandoned, abandoned, un abandoned. I'm gonna put that one aside. Wild uninhibited. Thank you. I [01:00:00] knew that the word would come from

Madeleine: I know, I know. Yeah.

unfiltered.

Andrea: and free to be entirely who you are. That is to me, so addictive.

Madeleine: Hmm.

Andrea: it's, and I'm finding that again myself. I mean, we all have, are journeys that we seek out the things that helps us version, and it looks different for any everybody.

Um, but whether it's alcohol or whether it's physically I mean, there's so many things that we're doing to create a different version of ourselves or a persona or something that we think that perhaps will work better to fit in or to be accepted.

But as we start wise, womanning, um, and peeling those pieces back or removing them entirely, the exposure of that, of that 15-year-old bad brownie [01:01:00] is like, I, I don't know. To me, if, if, if we could box that well, we would be, I don't know where we'd be. It'd be quite wonderful.

Madeleine: That'd be a tasty non-alcoholic cocktail.

Andrea: It sure would. Sure would.

Krista: Madeleine, before we, we wrap up and belive me, we don't wanna do it. Um, but I'm just wondering if we could have a little teaser about Autumn Collective, if you can share,

Madeleine: I'm, I'm very new to pitching Autumn Collective and, um, okay, so earlier we talked about this rainbow, right? And the rainbow started at adolescence, at gday, and that energy of transition from childhood to adolescence and how powerful and important and amazing that is. And so if we, the trajectory of that rainbow and it takes us through, mid adult life, let's call it, or parenthood, if you go that route.

Um, and then we come to the other end of the [01:02:00] Rainbow, and Autumn Collective came to me as a name. because of this wise woman, uh, wild woman. So she corresponds. If we look at the four classic archetypes of women, we have the maiden who corresponds to spring, the mother who corresponds to summer, and then the wise woman who is fall followed by the crone, who is winter.

Okay, great. So I, I love, I just love metaphors and I love archetypes. And so autumn is hence this wise, wild season and, um, collective to imply community. And that it's about conversation. And I, you and I, we like, we all share so much around our intention. Like we wanna have conversations that it isn't just like I talk, you, listen, let's bring in some experts, whatever.

It's like, nah. Like we are experts on our own lives. We are experts on what this, this phase of our lives means. And so I wanna have, live events that are about the [01:03:00] experience, not so much the science. Like there's a lot of great, like we've all seen the M factor now and we're talking about hormones and sleep and all those things and all of that is great, the research and the medical things and, and so on.

But that's not my background. I'm creative and I wanna see what it's like to hold space for conversations with other women in midlife and menopause. So that's the tagline of Autumn Collective is menopause, midlife, and magic. And Let's just see what happens. And if that looks like, like my favorite event that I had for Gday actually was, or not my favorite, gday, but one of our fundraisers that we had, we got together and we literally smashed plates against a concrete wall.

So I wanna do that again. Like I, I wanna have, like, I wanna have rituals, I wanna have conversations about our lives around, um, just what it means, like even aging parents, like this transition of like our, our kids leaving home and caring for elders [01:04:00] and as they transition into, you know, becoming ancestors and so on.

Um, yeah, and I just see it as kind of an ongoing project that doesn't look just one way. So I'm hoping to launch this September in Vancouver and try and have some online stuff too. And I would love to, um, collaborate with you two at some point.

Krista: We're gonna do it. We are. We're so on board. This is,

Madeleine: The intention is set.

Krista: yeah. And my word for the year is aligned, like alignment. So this is everything that I wanna be a part of. So yeah, we're gonna do it.

Madeleine: aligned. That's so good. Andrea, do you have a, a word for the year?

Andrea: Mine is intuition.

I moved away from intuition, feeling as though it was ego that was speaking. And what I didn't want to ever feel that I was associated with was having an ego. Or the, the negative [01:05:00] kind of aspect of what ego can do. And so as these things were coming up for me I often found myself saying, oh, that's because ego is, is getting in there and musing around.

And it wasn't until there was kind of a larger experience that was very difficult and in many ways a catalyst for me. It wasn't until I had the experience of, having this realization that, gosh, you know what, it wasn't ego that was speaking up at that time when you made that decision.

It was intuition and it was your guide and you have been putting it away and not listening to it for a long time. my intuition is behind all of what I'm doing now, because it is my anchor and my intuition is at a 10, outta 10.

Um, in terms of [01:06:00] frequency around everything to do with this conversation, with what you are doing, Madeleine, with who you are, with your journey with Autumn Collective, um, it, you know, I recognize, like Krista said, you know, this is. This is what we are meant to be

Madeleine: Mm-hmm.

Andrea: building and working on together.

Madeleine: Yeah,

Andrea: so I'm, I'm, I can't wait for part two.

Can we, like, can we get that in the schedule?

Madeleine: let's do it.

Krista: Madeleine has some planning to do. We're, we're happy to support. Um, Madeleine, thank you so much. Before you go, I'd love for you to share, if people wanted to, learn more about you and potentially reach out to you, um, we use LinkedIn a lot.

Is that somewhere they can find you or what would be the best way that they could learn more about you and reach out?

Madeleine: LinkedIn is definitely my platform, if you will, of choice. And I also have a website at [01:07:00] Madeleineshaw.ca and you can find links there to all the things. Um, I like to write on Medium and I also have a Substack that I use occasionally. but yeah, definitely if you, if you connect with me on LinkedIn.

Absolutely. And, um, I think there's even, like, you can email me right off the website too, uh, for anyone who has specific questions. This has been great. Thank you.

Krista: Thank you so much for your time and honestly, I'm so looking forward to part two. We'll talk more about Autumn Collective and for those listening, if you aren't following us, you can find us on LinkedIn and Instagram and um, yeah, we'd love to hear from you. Our website is halfbetty.com.

Instagram is @halfbetty, LinkedIn. You can find both of us, Andrea and Krista on there as well. Please reach out, let us know how your experience was with this episode and please share, let people know that we're out there. We are so, so happy to be in this space and, um, we are not stopping [01:08:00] anytime soon. So reach out to us and we'll hear from you soon.

Thanks Madeleine.

Andrea: Thanks Madeleine.

Madeleine: Thanks friends.