S2 EP12 - Wisdom in Bloom

[00:00:00]

Andrea: This episode of Half Betty was inspired by a simple invitation: You need to meet one another. Those were the words of our friend Carolyn Hawes, who, alongside Diane Brennan, co-hosts the podcast, The Devil Wears SPF. She was introducing us to Kamesha and Denise, the co-founders and hosts of Wisdom in Bloom.

She couldn't have been more right. What unfolded was a conversation about friendship, courage, and the quiet power of having people in our lives who see us clearly, remind us of who we are, and encourage us to do the brave thing, even when it feels uncomfortable. One of the moments that stayed with us most in our conversation was around the Half Betty five words.

Kamesha and Denise shared how meaningful it was to step away from the labels and expectations of others, and discover the five words that feel deeply true to who they are. They both spoke about carrying those words with them for the rest of their lives, a thread to return to and a reminder of who they are and who they will continue to [00:01:00] become.

The five words aren't just a question we ask every guest. They're a practice of remembering ourselves. We hope this conversation reminds you of the people who help you remember who you are, and perhaps inspire you to discover your own five words. Now, please enjoy this conversation with Denise and Kamesha

Denise: So through- throughout all the things in the military, so I was in for 10 years, and I was a Marine, so boot camp was very hard for me, like very harsh. And, um, and the smack dab in the middle of them teaching you how to kill people and all the things, you have a makeup class.

And there's a day where they bring a person

Kamesha: Was that optional?

Denise: person... There's no options in boot camp, Kamisha.

Andrea: You just are there

Denise: yeah, you, you do what you're told to do. And so, we, we go to this class, and what they're teaching you... Because in the military, you are, you are their, their, you're government issued.

You're their [00:02:00] product. So they teach you how to wear makeup according to their military rules and laws. And so they had this white woman come in to teach us all. And in, in this, you know, group of women in the military is white, Black, Hispanic, Asian, you know, it's a conglomerate of us, and this one woman is teaching us all how to put on makeup with the same exact colors.

Andrea: No

Denise: when she got done with me, I looked like the doll Madam, the Black version. It was horrendous. I had these big rosy red cheeks. I had on blue makeup. I- I'm talking

Kamesha: Eye shadow

Denise: a blue eyeshadow,

Andrea: was the '80s

Denise: blue, blue eyeshadow and, and fire red

Andrea: Oh my

Denise: firetruck lipstick. [00:03:00] I looked like I was about to go make some money. That's about all I had to do. Yeah, it was, it was horrifying. Yeah. It was horrifying. And w- when, when she got done and she was teaching us and she was telling us all the things to do, all of the women of color, Brown, Black, Hispanic, we were just... Like we were speechless. Like all of us were speechless.

Krista: No words

Denise: I wasn't a big makeup wearer anyway, but to be taught how to...

I'm 17, by the way. And to put makeup on me as if I'm 80 years old and I'm packing... I mean, it was packed, you know, because she couldn't find the right foundation color. So she would put one on, then she would put another one on and mix it to see if she could get

Andrea: On your skin? Like on your face she'd mix it?

Denise: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Andrea: my gosh

Denise: we would have to stand there, you know, in a certain stance [00:04:00] to

Kamesha: What, did they take pictures or something? Or you just

Denise: Yes. I ha- I have a picture and I, I have one picture, and the one picture is me trying to attempt to calm it down before we took our military pictures, but yeah. Mm. Yeah.

Krista: Oh, wait. They did this and then they

Denise: Yeah, we had

Krista: took pictures everybody, like

Denise: yeah, we had to take our pr- professional ph- it was

It was, and, and then they, and they didn't have products, like no products for our hair.

They didn't know- they didn't tell you how to take care of your hair. And it's, it, in the '80s it was so set up for a woman with the type of hair, Caucasian or whatever the type of hair, that you could pull back and put in a nice bun. Ah. Okay? So I end up having to cut all my hair off, guys, and I have like this

Krista: No

Denise: little um, afro like this, this little, this little bush.

And then I have this big hat 'cause I, I can't wear a hat that's just sitting on

Yeah, yeah. [00:05:00] Those were the days. You take the good, you take the bad and

Krista: take them both and there you

Kamesha: did they come for ma- do the makeup more than one time or

Denise: No. Oh, no, no, no. No. No, it was only one time. It's just one time, and you had to, you had to remember it. And you, and those colors were military-issued regulated colors. Those

Andrea: Oh, they were?

Denise: Yeah, that red, that butt blue eyeshadow and- Yeah.

Andrea: gosh. This is

Denise: the big rosy, the big rosy red cheeks, you know?

Yeah.

Krista: you would think, I mean, like, so I've been a makeup artist for 20 years. A- Andrea has also

Denise: Maybe you should apply for that job

Krista: certified to be a makeup art- And to me, when I think military, I'm like, no makeup or, some mascara. Like, what are we doing here? we're not here to impress anybody. We're here to do a job.

Nobody [00:06:00] needs all this stuff, and certainly not red lipstick and blue eyeshadow. But so what year is it, if, if it's okay

Denise: 83, 84-ish. Mm, mm-hmm.

Andrea: So I wonder, like, it'd be really interesting to see now where the military is with that.

Denise: and if they even

Andrea: really

Denise: that type of class now. Because now I see, I see women and their makeup is, is nice and they're, they have braids and twists like mine and they'll, you know, have it back real neat or whatever. So things have come a long way.

from when, from when we were in the military.

Andrea: a story. What a story

Krista: I

Kamesha: This reminds me of, um, when I was in college and I was an intern at Disney Florida. I was an intern at Disney

Denise: Oh my God, I've known her for 72 years I have never heard this story. I never knew she was an intern at [00:07:00] Disney, one of my favorite place in the world. I mean, a hun-

Andrea: finding this out?

Denise: 100 years of knowing someone, and this is what you give to me Now we're in the open

Kamesha: Yes, I was, I was a, I was a Disney worker. I, well, I think they called us, don't they call us characters or something? But, um, yeah, I was a Disney character and I worked in the Disney MGM Studios in the Commissary. I don't know if they still have that restaurant, but it's the Commissary. But anyway, one of the things we had to do was we had to take these classes, like, to learn about the history of Walt Disney and, you know, how to be a proper Disney person.

And so they had something called the Disney look. and there was one day when they took us through the Disney look and, like, what you had to do as far as, you know, your dress and your hair and your earrings. And so you couldn't wear, hoop earrings. I think they only had to be, you know, like stud earrings.

Your hair had to be a certain length. They [00:08:00] talked about, your skirt had to be, below the knee and all. And of- the funny thing about it was, like, so this was like early, mid '90s. This is how women dressed, right, in like the office and in the workplace. And they had, they showed us the women and the men, and the men, they all had to be clean-shaven.

Like you could not have any, they couldn't have any hair on their face. They had the different haircuts that the men were allowed to have. They showed different pictures of all the different haircuts they could have, and they showed us all of the different suits and, that they could wear and the colors.

I think it was like blue and black or something that they could wear, and they called it the Disney look. And,

Andrea: It's so wild, isn't it?

Kamesha: I was like, "Wow." Like, it, it was so interesting. Of course, I'm in college, so I really hadn't worked in an office or anything like that.

So I'm thinking, "Is this what I have to look like, when I go out, in the real world and start working?" They, you had to wear pantyhose. It tells you, like, what kind of shoes you could wear.

Denise: Yes. That's how you [00:09:00] have to look. I was a, I was a bank manager, and we had to wear pantyhose. our skirts had to be below the knee. We couldn't wear open-toe shoes, no tattoo showing, uh, buttons had to be buttoned above the cleave

So yeah, they were training you for corporate America.

It definitely was. Mm-hmm. Nine to five.

Kamesha: Yes. Yes. They didn't show us about-- They didn't talk to us about makeup though. But when you were talking about that, it reminded me of, like, how we had to, how we had to look.

Krista: So what characters did you work,Yeah, I'm so curious

Kamesha: in

Denise: What... I mean, I do not know you anymore.

Kamesha: I wasn't a character. I think they just called us characters. But I worked in the restaurant.

So they assigned me to the Disney MGM Studios, and I worked in a restaurant called The Commissary, where we made burgers and hot dogs and stuff like that. I was a cashier. I also worked, as a cook and, behind the scenes and all that stuff.

But the coolest thing about it was everybody there was in college, and so we stayed, just away from the Disney... [00:10:00] It was still on Disney property, but, like, right away from the parks. And, like, all of us there were, like, kids in college, and so they had residences for us. There were, four of us, four girls that were in the, room or whatever together.

Um, and there was a girl from Massachusetts, and there was another girl from Texas, and they all had different jobs. Somebody was a, a lifeguard at, like, another park. It was really cool, though. I actually enjoyed it a lot. It was a

Denise: How did you stumble onto a job like that? I'm asking for a friend

Kamesha: I don't know

Krista: need to go

Kamesha: I don't know if you qualify for an internship at Walt Disney World.

Denise: I ha- I have, I have

Kamesha: my campus.

Denise: grandkids, so

Kamesha: They came to, Disney

Andrea: there you go

Kamesha: campus. I went to Morgan State University. I guess They were looking for more diverse people, more diverse students, and so they came to our campus.

I applied, and I had to do a phone interview. I remember I had to do a phone interview, and then they called me back to say, "Hey," "Congratulations. You got it."

Andrea: It's so [00:11:00] interesting. Isn't it, isn't it wild, like, what our first experiences are

Denise: Yeah

Andrea: and how those shape us? As you were both, like, sharing these,like, really early experiences, um, the pieces that stood out in there for you, um, and it'd be interesting to know, like, what from those experiences have still pulled through your life, if anything.

But maybe there were things that kind of started to kind of shape some of your life as you move on from that. I just... You know, Krista, what was your first job, and like, do you feel like that's something that

Kamesha: She's

Andrea: still sits with you?

Kamesha: stay."

Andrea: Yeah.

Krista: Oh, I'll tell you. My very first job, well, kind of sort of had two at the same time. I think I was probably around 14. My dad was a mechanic, and he owned a shop. And so, um, m- one of my first jobs was [00:12:00] working at my dad's shop, and he thought it was a good idea to assign me to, you know, tidy, clean

Denise: Mm-hmm.

Krista: up. And, um, I, I did such a good job that I was demoted to the coffee room because I cleaned up all of the oil and grease off the parts, which I should not have touched.

And, like, oil and grease is a good thing when it comes to parts and cars and functioning and moving. And, and I think a couple of his employees probably said, "What are you doing?" Like, "She can't. Please don't. Don't let her back into the shop." And so I got demoted to the coffee room,

I mean, listen, there was, like, a lot of dirty, grubby, you know, very nice men, but they were dirty. And the coffee room was so gross. And so I had lots to do in there.

But then I also

Denise: up the resume. Fattening up the resume

Krista: And then at, also at the same time, in and around [00:13:00] that time, my mom would hire me at her... It was a closed credit union, so it was just for members

There was, like, maybe four or five of them that worked in the credit union, and every month, um, they would bring me in for a few days to, uh, assemble all the statements. I mean, this is back in the day, so there was paper statements, and then the cheques.

And so I'd have to go into all the files and take all the checks out, make sure that they were registered on the, in, like, the statement, match them up, staple them, fold them, put them in an envelope. And then at the end of the week, we got to go to the post office and mail them. But the best part was putting the envelopes through the machine, and they, like, licked the...

Like, the machine sealed

Andrea: you didn't have to do it

Krista: so I didn't have to lick it. And sealed it, and then we got to go to the, the post office and mail them.

Andrea: this is so fasc- and do

Krista: What was your first job, Andrea?

Andrea: um... [00:14:00] I

Krista: many people my age had paper routes. Paper

Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. I did not.

Kamesha: was a big one.

Andrea: lived in quite, um, like rural, small, very small towns growing up, and so, um, there was not a lot of opportunity. And I also lived out of town when I was the age where I would've gotten a job. I lived quite far out of town.

Um, so again, it was a little tricky. I would say that my first job that I felt like was a really important job was, um, in the space of babysitting and pet sitting.

Between that and then when I did get my first job job outside of that work is I was called, and it was the official title, and I was about

1. It was called a chambermaid, which I don't know when that got kind of sunsetted as a title. Um, but a chambermaid was an employee at a hotel [00:15:00] who would clean the rooms in the morning before the new guests would arrive. And one of my very best friends, whose family who had come from Ireland, bought a little hotel in the town that I lived in and they were running and operating this hotel and needed as much help as they could get.

And so they said that I could, along with their daughter, be the chambermaids. And so we got to clean people's hotel rooms in the morning. And I say got to kind of loosely because that's another piece that stays with me is that when you--are taking care of animals and taking care of children and babies, and then cleaning people's rooms in the morning after they've left them, where you're seeing all of their really kind of behind their curtain

curtain of who they are.

I think that has created a sense of like nurture and care, which I think is a big part of who I am, and that [00:16:00] comes from that animal care, that childcare, um, making sure that people are safe and that they can thrive and that they can be happy and, and in, in your hands.

and I think the chambermaid role really gave me a strong takeaway of every person is actually so much the same. Like behind it all, we sleep We use bathrooms. We, some sense of hygiene. But there are these things that humans, no matter who you are and where you're from, we share the same things.

It's just, there's a sense of like humans are humans are humans. Um, of course, there's complexity on top of that, but when you take it all away, there's like this core of us just all being human.

Kamesha: we get in the

Andrea: so there was like... Right? So there was just like some foundational takeaways from that, so

Kamesha: I never thought about that though. Like, what did I take away [00:17:00] from my first jobs? So that, that internship wasn't my first job. My first job was at McDonald's.

Denise: Mm-hmm

Kamesha: first job, I was 16 years old, and my mom told me I needed to get a job, and of course, where are you gonna look as a 16-year-old? I'm from the city, and so she worked w- she worked, her building was like over top of a McDonald's.

So she's like, "Oh, I think I saw something that they're hiring at the McDonald's downstairs." And so I went, I applied. It was over the summertime. They hired me, and again, I worked with a lot of young people, so I actually really enjoyed it. it was a lot of fun.

And I had this one manager, his name was Jose. I'll never forget Jose. And Jose would always say, "If you have time to lean, you have time to clean." Like, "Get this and go change the trash," and da da da. And that actually was a work ethic that stayed with me my whole life. That until you just said this, asked that question, I never thought of it.

But every time I have a job, I'm always like, "There's always [00:18:00] something I could be doing," right?

And that always stuck with me 'cause I'm like, if you have downtime, that doesn't mean there's nothing to do. Like you just have to find what the next thing is for you to be doing. But yes, Jose always

Andrea: Love that

Kamesha: time to lean, you got time to clean."

Andrea: Shout out for Jose

Denise: Period.

Krista: that

Denise: Period. Didn't know that. Didn't know she

Kamesha: You didn't know my first job was at McDonald's? I tell everybody that story.

Denise: no. And, and I've worked at McDonald's, so you know the the whole thing about the the milkshake machine, being down? I probably was a reason even back in the, in the '80s, because I was assigned to clean the ice cream machine at night.

It is one of the biggest, most horrendous task at McDonald's, 'cause you have to break down the machine piece by piece so you can clean every little thing. So when you guys go, the next time you go through a McDonald's and you ask for ice cream or a milkshake and they tell you the ice cream machine is down, it's because the people that night before was like, "F this, I [00:19:00] am not cleaning this."

It's not broke, it's just not clean.

Andrea: Oh my gosh, this is amazing. We're revealing like these big hidden like mysteries that have existed.

Denise: Mm-hmm.

Andrea: People listening to this are gonna be like,

Kamesha: as a, working at McDonald's?

Denise: No, that was not my first job. My first job, guys, was by accident actually. Sowhen I was in high school, I did a program where I could take business classes and, general studies, general education classes in high school. So I had, um, gotten so many credits in high school that I was able to get into this business program while I was in high school.

And so when I was in this business program, what they would do when you would become a senior, is they would help, um, you start interviewing and placing [00:20:00] you in these different corporations, these different jobs. And these corporations would build a relationship with the high schools to get, students who can do, typing or copying or filing, things like that.

And so I was in the 10th grade, and I was sent as a shadow, to a senior who was going to Blue Cross and Blue Shield to do an interview, and I was supposed to just sit back and take notes on how she is doing in this interview so when it was my turn as a senior, I can have this data behind me to pull from as they're teaching me how to do these interviews.

So while we're in the interview, she's interviewing. She's doing great, and I'm taking my notes, and the guy starts talking to me. I don't know. I'm... You guys, I'm, I'm 10th grade. I think I'm 15, you know? And I had no clue that he was actually interviewing me. So he starts talking to me, and [00:21:00] he's asking me questions, and I'm still taking notes and, and I'm just having, like, casual conversation with him, and it's over.

he shakes, um, the senior's hand that was with me, said, "You did a great job," da, da, da, da, da, and we leave. The next day, I go to school, and I go into my business program class, and the teacher who's teaching the class, Ms. Jones, she calls me in her office, and she said, "What happened at the interview yesterday?"

And I'm like, "What do you mean, what happened?" I said, "It was great. I took notes. I mean, you know, uh, the senior," "said she did a great job, you know?" And she says, "Is that all that happened?" At this point, I think I am totally in trouble. And I said, I said, "Yeah." I said, "That's all that's happened."

I know I didn't do anything, so the first thing I say to her is, "Did she do something wrong?" You know? 'Cause I know I didn't do anything ri- And she "No." I said, "Well, are they gonna hire her?" And they said, "No, they wanna hire you." And I said, "Me?"

Andrea: way

Kamesha: you stole her job

Denise: I [00:22:00] did. I absolutely did.

And didn't know

Krista: her?

Denise: I had no

Kamesha: No.

Krista: stealer.

Denise: Had no

Kamesha: know that you was a job stealer.

Denise: and I said, "Me? They want me?" I said, "They didn't even interview me. They interviewed her." And she says, "The, the guy said he spoke with you." And I said, "Yeah, but it was just casual conversation." And she said, "Well, he wants to hire you and not her."

And that was my first- job working at Blue Cross and Blue Shield. I was the youngest person in there. I was

Andrea: Wow

Denise: And guess, guess what the job was, Listen to this. I was sitting at a desk with a chair, and a- as I look out, there was a secretary pool, and it was probably 10 women sitting with headphones on doing dict- dictation.

And the executives from C-suite would dictate a memo on a cassette tape. They would drop it down the [00:23:00] chute, and each person would go and pull a chute and take the tape out, and they would put the tape in their machine, listen to it, and they would type up the memos. And then when they would get through typing the memos, they would shoot it to the copier.

And my job was to get it off the copier, edit it, and make sure there was no grammatical errors or mistake, and then put it in these categorical, boxes so it could be sent down to the executive, who did the memo, or sent back to the person if I found errors. That was my job

Krista: Okay, you win.

Andrea: Yeah, you win

Denise: That was it?

Krista: That is

Andrea: Okay, now

Krista: important job

Andrea: what did you take from that?

Denise: that I didn't wanna be a secretary. I didn't want to do that. But you know what it did teach me, now that I'm sitting here? Because I love to read. I've always loved to read. I would get lost in reading, and I would [00:24:00] there and I would read these memos and read the things that they were doing for the company or the memos that they were sending outside the company globally to this person or that person.

I learned so much about the company, but I also l- learned that I do love to read, and it was so interesting. Sometimes it would be like, I can't wait till the next memo come out 'cause I wanna know what he's gonna tell her, because she said... You know what I mean?

Andrea: brilliant.

Denise: So that

Andrea: love

Denise: that was my first job. That was my very first

Kamesha: that was a job.

Denise: Isn't that crazy? Yep,

Andrea: So good.

Denise: guys. I was so young that, um, it was right when microwaves was just really coming out in the break room. and I would bring a cold sandwich for my lunch. I would be so nervous because these people were like 28, 25, 30, 35, 40 years old.

And the first time I was in the break room, I put my sandwich in the [00:25:00] microwave. I had no clue what a microwave was. We were dirt poor. We didn't have no damn microwave. And, and I said, "I just wanna warm it up a little bit," and I put it on like three minutes

Andrea: It

Denise: In, in, in, in the Ziploc bag

Andrea: Oh

Krista: No.

Andrea: I hope you didn't attempt to eat it, did you?

Krista: No, no, no, no, no. You did not eat. You did

Denise: Yep, I did. And, this lady, she, she may be a- been, been about 35, 36 years old. She said, "Honey, have you never used a microwave before?" And I said, "No, ma'am." I was, like, in tears. I was

Andrea: Oh

Denise: And from that day on, she would teach me little things. She'd teach me about the microwave. She'd teach me about the coffee pot.

She'd teach me about the, the vending machine. She'd teach me who to kinda steer away from. You're too young. They're inappropriate. You need... Like, she would really, like, teach me all these little things, And I kept that [00:26:00] job till I graduated high school

Kamesha: Mm-mm-mm.

Krista: She became

Andrea: out for her.

Denise: Mm-hmm.

Andrea: Do you remember her name?

that?

Denise: Her name was Alice. Mm-hmm. And, and it was

Krista: We love Alice

Denise: She lived right down the street from my auntie, and I had never met her before in my life until that, that job.

Kamesha: Mm-hmm.

Andrea: We've got Jose. We're shouting out Jose. We're shouting out Alice.

Kamesha: Mm-hmm.

Andrea: Krista, who are we shouting out, and what's your takeaway from your demotion and your work in the, in

Krista: well, I'm just gonna shout out my mom and dad, Denny and Donna

Yep. Denny and Donna, they got me my first jobs. God bless them.

Andrea: job

Krista: Yep. And what did I take away? Do as you're told and don't go above and beyond.

Andrea: Oh, that's so interesting

Kamesha: Go above and

Krista: D- you don't need to clean the oil and the grease off the car parts. You don't need to do that. Some things are

Denise: You don't have to do the [00:27:00] dishes

Krista: just meant to stay as they are

Denise: Mm-mm

Kamesha: Funny

Andrea: a good takeaway. There's nothing wrong with that.

Denise: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm,

Andrea: taking away that, you know, sometimes the dirt and the grease or the gritty bits are actually good

Denise: Yeah.

Andrea: necessary.

Denise: Mm-hmm.

Kamesha: yep, yep,

Denise: What,

Andrea: We all need to have a little bit of the grit

Denise: cool little thing that just kinda organically happened with these stories?

Andrea: Mm-hmm. And the shout-outs for people. I love shouting out people

Denise: I learned so

Andrea: have had an influence on us,

Kamesha: Yeah.

Andrea: like you two had on us

Kamesha: when I was at Disney World, So this is another thing I guess I learned, or I appreciated.

I never knew until I worked there that all of the people at Epcot were actually from the countries that they said they were from. And so when I worked as an intern, there were kids there from different countries. So there was a guy named Pedro, since you like names. He was from Puerto Rico. He was really from Puerto Rico. There was a boy, I can't remember his name. He was a friend of Pedro's. They worked together. [00:28:00] He was from Morocco. There was another girl who was really from France, and that's when I learned, oh my gosh, these people are not just, pretending that they're from all these countries.

And I had a great appreciation for them. Like, I was so in awe, learning about their countries and their languages and stuff.

And I guess I have a, an appreciation for diversity, for people from

Andrea: I love

Denise: That's where it probably started.

Kamesha: about... Yeah. Well, that could have also started from, growing up in New York, but it was amplified there because that's when I started meeting, you know, people from so many different countries that I had never met before.

But I really appreciated it. And like you said, we had so much in common 'cause we were from different places, but we were still teenagers, right? So we still had, like, similar interests and, um, it was just very cool. It was just a very cool job.

Denise: I love it. Have you guys ever heard of, um, Benetton? Remember the store, the store Benetton? S- so your story reminded me, uh, when [00:29:00] me and my husband lived in Italy. So my husband's in the military. We lived in Italy and, um, my husband w- would, um, take me and the kids, um, to, to the gym so the kids can, like, get some energy out and, and play.

Like, they would be playing basketball and running around the, um, the gym. And he knows how I am about strangers and people walking up to me. And one day we were in the gym and this, this woman, she just kept watching the kids. And I told my husband, "This woman keeps watching the kids. I think we should leave."

I get anxiety so bad sometimes and eventually the woman walks up to me, she gives me a card and she says, "I am a modeling scout for Benetton." And she said, "And I love the look of your children. I was wondering, would you be willing to, uh, have us shoot them for a Benetton, um, campaign?

We don't pay money, but we do give the clothes to you that they've modeled," [00:30:00] right? And I'm like, "Really? Is this true?" And you know, you, you get so skeptical. And so she said, "I promise you." There was another lady with her that would be at the gym all the time. She said, "Yes, she's, she is.

She, she really is." And so we accepted it. They sent, like, this huge, um, bus, like one of those travel buses to our area to pick up our kids and a couple other kids that they had scouted, and they took us to this huge, beautiful building. And within this building, there had to be, I don't know, probably 60, 65 kids, and they were all from all over the world,

And they all spoke different languages, but they all played together. It was just fabulous to see. They ate together. They played all kind of, uh, games together. They would make, signs and gestures to help with the language barrier.

they were little kids. My daughter was in elementary school. And, and they did a [00:31:00] full-blown, Benetton shoot. They did a summer and a winter catalog. We got tons of clothes, and they made friends for a lifetime 'cause we was over there for three years, and none of them spoke the same language.

And so that's what it w- reminded me of, like, kids don't, they don't... I mean, there's color, but they don't see that. They just see spirit and your heart, and I wish we were more like that. Like you said, you saw all these kids, and it was from all these different places, and it was such eye-opening for you.

And that's what it did for us, there at Benetton. And those kids, they had a great time.

Kamesha: How come I don't know this? How come I have never heard this story?

Denise: my gosh.

Andrea: Okay, this is the theme clearly of this episode

Denise: The things I don't know about my friend

Kamesha: We have chill child models out here.

Andrea: So, so I just wanna stay with Benetton just for one second 'cause, 'cause

Denise: I would love Benetton.

Andrea: just, exploded a little bit. It was the one piece of clothing when I was in grade [00:32:00] nine, I remember this so clearly, that a really good friend of mine showed up in a Benetton sweatshirt.

Denise: Oh my gosh, was it the multi-color sweatshirt?

Andrea: yes,

Denise: Yeah

Andrea: there was no way that I was going to get that Benetton sweatshirt, and we didn't live anywhere where I could even buy Benetton. She had access to the city farther away, and I made-- I remember in my brain, I said, "One day I am going to have a Benetton sweatshirt just like that."

And I searched that Benetton sweatshirt out, and I got it when I was about 27 years old I still have it. It's in my bottom drawer.

Kamesha: No way.

Andrea: They need to like... I don't know what happened to Benetton

Kamesha: Wow. They still have Benetton internationally. I was really shocked. They do. We were in Spain, in Madrid, and there was a Benetton [00:33:00] store. There was a Benetton store

Denise: It's international but not here. Yeah.

Kamesha: a Benetton store." He's like, "What?" I said, "You don't know Benetton?" Like, when I was younger,

Denise: Yeah, everybody wanted to do, yes

Kamesha: mall, every store. The only thing that we could get from Benetton, my mother bought me a bottle of perfume. I'll never forget it. And I don't know what it was called, I guess Benetton perfume. And so I remember I wore it to school, and there was a cute boy, and he's like, "Ooh, you smell good.

What are you wearing?" Benetton. I had a love for perfume ever since that day. Ever since that day, I'm always wearing perfume now.

Denise: Benetton was so, it was just so prevalent for everyone. I can remember me and my husband being somewhere, and we had the kids with us, and this, this couple walked by us, and the lady turns around and she said, "I was in Germany last week, and [00:34:00] I saw that child's picture on a Benetton poster at the train station."

Yeah. it was wild.

Kamesha: paid you. They got pictures of your daughter in a whole 'nother country

Denise: Yeah. And you know, I was young. I was super young, what? 20,

Yeah. But we got clothes that we would have never been able to afford Like, we got, I mean,Clothes that she didn't even wear, that she didn't even take photos in.

They would just g- they just gave us tons of clothes. Tons. And they

Andrea: any of them?

Denise: for two season. You know, I, I didn't keep any. As she got older, we passed them down

Andrea: Yeah, of course.

Denise: But, she still remembers it. She's 39 years old, and she did it, and my middle daughter did it.

And, When you talk about memories, that is one of the memories that always

Andrea: Core memory

Denise: for them. Mm-hmm. And all the kids that they were able to, meet, and they had so much fun. These kids didn't even know they were working. That's just how much fun that [00:35:00] they were having with each other, you know?

And Benetton, they were fabulous. They were very patient. They were very loving to the parents, very forthright to the parents. They fed the parents. They fed the kids.

Andrea: This is like now a shout-out for we've got Jose, Pedro, Alice, Danny, Donna, and Benetton

Denise: they really took care of their kids. And My oldest daughter talks about it and says that was one of the things that really introduced her to other cultures and other colors and different people

So shout out to Benetton for being fabulous even back in the '80s.

Kamesha: back in the

Andrea: I think they need to have a revival. They were called the United Colors of Benetton. That was the full...

Kamesha: that is. That's what it was.

Andrea: and they were, like, a provocative brand too. They were

Denise: They were very progressive and bold and yeah.

Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. They started getting into more and more campaigns that were more about social impact, and justice and they were really, a bold [00:36:00] brand,

Kamesha: They had all those bold primary colors.

Andrea: Yes. Yes.

Denise: When someone would have on Benetton, you would know it. Their clothes just kind of stood out. You knew the quality and the colors and yeah, I

Andrea: So interesting. How do you feel that might come together to tell a little bit more about your story, where you are now, and with what you're doing together in your own lives?

Denise: I'm gonna pass the hat to Kamesha 'cause I've learned so much about her you know?

Kamesha: I mean, wow. All of the things. Your store, yeah, your first job, your, your children that are amazing models for Benetton. Um, so I'm Kamesha and Denise and I have a podcast called Wisdom in Bloom, and it was Denise's idea to create this podcast, and it's a podcast for women in midlife. [00:37:00] And we felt that there were not enough spaces where women in midlife can come together and talk about all of the things that were happening to us in midlife.

So Denise and I would have different conversations and, we would have them separately with, friends and things, and we were wondering, like, "Why don't we have more of these conversations, like, out in the world where women, who have experienced life, can actually come together in community to talk about these things?"

And so it was her idea to create the show, and she came to me about it. I didn't wanna do it. I just, I knew that it was gonna be

Denise: She put me down flat. Like, she didn't even let me get the whole thing out. She just, yeah, turned me down

Kamesha: No,

Krista: rude. Why? Why? Why were you hesitating?

Kamesha: So we had both had experience with podcasts. So she had a podcast with her husband that she was doing at the time. I had a [00:38:00] podcast, I guess it was defunct at that point, with my son that I had done, and it was just a lot of work. I already knew it was a lot of work, and it was a lot of time, it was a lot of energy.

You know, you gotta come up with the concepts and, like, record the shows and make the time. And, and my son and I, we had a successful show until we had, a separation due to d- differences. We had creative differences. That's what we had, creative differences. He wanted to take the show in one direction, I wanted to take it in a different direction.

So we just decided, let's just call it quits. And so I didn't really wanna do another show. But when Denise said, "No, I think this is what I wanna do. I want us to talk to women who are like us, who are our age, about the, the women things and what's going on in midlife and menopause," da da da.

And I was like, "Well, maybe," but no. And so I'm a big person,

Denise: like dramatically no.

Kamesha: And so I got it though, I just didn't think I needed to be a part of it. Like, I can be a [00:39:00] guest. Like, I was a guest on her podcast before and stuff. Um, but I'm a big believer in signs.

Uh, and so one day she sent me a picture just out of the blue, like no

Denise: No caption, no content around

Kamesha: sent me a picture, it was a mug, and it was a hand, and in the hand said, like the name her... They, her grandkids call her Emma. So on the hand said Emma, and then each finger had the name of one of her grandkids. And I s- responded, I was like, "What?

You won't believe this," I said, "But I just bought my mom this mug for Mother's Day."

Denise: I'm a

Kamesha: The exact mug, same color and everything, and I sent her a picture back and I was like, "Oh, shit. this mean we gotta do the podcast?" I was like, "This means something. This meanswe're connected. Like, does this mean we gotta do this podcast thing?"

And I was like, "All right. I guess there's something here," you know? So that's when I agreed to [00:40:00] do the podcast.

Denise: They hung up the phone and I was screaming to my husband, "She's in. I got her."

Krista: I love it.

Kamesha: That's the origin story. And so ever since then, we decided that we really wanted us to come together and not just talk to women, but we wanted it to be a show that, like, helped women be more, not just informed at this time in their life, but, like, more courageous, right? And, um, but we also like to laugh and like to talk, so we wanted it to be humorous, you know.

Um, and we love talking to other women, so then we have other women come on the show and we talk to them about all kinds of stuff. We just had the fabulous Miss Joan talking to us about sex at 60. It was so cool. Um, so we get to meet all these wonderful women, and then we just get to share our experiences.

It kind of validates, what's happening and what's going on with us at this stage in our life. So [00:41:00] that's where Wisdom in Bloom came from. Did I leave anything out, Denise?

Denise: No, not at all. You even said the "oh shit" part. It was really good

Andrea: That's like the most important part, right?

Denise: The only part, the only part, 'cause it was like, it wasn't like, "Oh, shit." It was like, "Oh, shit." You know, like, "I gotta do this now,"

Kamesha: I know. I really, I felt, I felt called.

Denise: Not just one time. I probably asked Kamesha three or four times, "Come on, y- I mean, seriously? You really don't..." Like, we would get on the phone and we would have, we would have a fabulous conversation, and it would be whatever... Usually it's me. I'm always going through something, and she's always talking me off a ledge.

And I'm like, "Look, look at this. We should've shared this. You know someone could, get something out of this." And she was like, "No, Denise. No. No. No."

Kamesha: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then she called me once out of the blue like, "Oh, my guest canceled," or whatever on her podcast. "I think you'd be great for this topic." And I was like, "What? Okay, fine." So I jumped on her podcast and [00:42:00] after that she's like, "That was so great. Wasn't that so great? Don't you think we should do a podcast?"

I'm like, "No, but if you need a guest or whatever, I don't mind." You know, I ain't going, ain't going-

Denise: I end up calling her back to be a guest like two or three times, and the episodes that I would do with her would be some of the highest trending episodes. So I knew we

Krista: See?

Denise: We had

Krista: Miss Corporate America. Hello. She knows what's going on.

Denise: I knew we had some type of chemistry, but it was just, I had to really s- sell it to her.

And then I was like, "All this selling, all this, you know, coming to you, all this explaining, all this begging, and it took a damn mug." Mug. That's what it

Krista: Who knew?

Denise: Who knew it took a mug?

Krista: You were just called. I love it

Denise: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Andrea: Yeah, there's something more to the mug. It's like everything that came before it was probably necessary, and then the mug was just the final push.

Denise: the cake. Mm-hmm

Kamesha: I [00:43:00] guess maybe Denise knew something about our connection that I just didn't, I just didn't see. Like, I didn't feel it, I

Andrea: Oh, that's interesting

Kamesha: I didn't get it 'cause like she said, she had been asking me to do this for like some time, and even after we started with the podcast, that's one of the things that people always talk about.

Like, "Oh, we love your chemistry. Oh, we love your friendship. Oh, you know, we love your stories and everything." And I just was like, "Eh, she's my friend." You know what I mean? it wasn't a big thing to me to, that

Andrea: Right

Kamesha: so unique to me, I didn't think, that it was something that needed to be like out in the world.

You know what I mean? But I guess

Andrea: But did that also help that when you joined and when you became the duo that you didn't really have to change anything or work really hard to make it into something 'cause it already existed? Is that how you felt like it transitioned into the podcast?

Denise: I do. I feel like that because Kamisha is so easy to... First of all, she's very easy [00:44:00] to talk to. It's not hard work to be her friend. You know what I mean? there's no work around it, and when she loves you as a friend, like, it's, it's sealed.

She loves you as a friend, and she will try and keep the connection even if you pull away. You know what I mean? I mean, she worked in Dubai for I think two and a half, almost three years she worked over there. And almost every month, once a month, she would set up a Zoom for me and her to just catch up.

She would not,

Andrea: Oh, I love that

Denise: it was during COVID and I would be crying and things would be happening, and my husband was hospitalized. It was just so much going on, and I would just be on the phone with her just blabbering and crying and, you know, and all the things. But the next month, we'd get on another Zoom.

Like, it didn't push her away, so it was just easy to be her friend. some relationships you have to work to keep the friendship together. You know, I've had friendships where it [00:45:00] was exhausting, and you really have to,forth a lot of effort. I don't have to do that with Kamisha. We could go two or three days and not talk or anything, and I'd send her a text or I'm texting say, "Hey, how you doing?"

Or she will send me a morning audio and tell me how beautiful I am, "You have purpose today. Today is your day. I see you. You are a great person." Like, it's just easy, you know? And I've had, friends throughout my life. I'm 60 years old, and the older I've gotten and some of the tragedies that I've been through, it's been hard for me to befriend people, like hard for me to trust people.

but it was never that way, you know, with Kamisha. Like, I can tell her my secrets. I can tell her things that are going on in my household. Even my husband says, "You have truly found a good friend. She is really a good friend, and you should hold onto that." So I've always seen it, and I've always known it was there.

But Kamisha don't see it because she's just being [00:46:00] Kamisha. That's just who she is as a friend, not just to me, but to her other friends, her other... She has different friends in different categories. Like, she has her high school friends. She has her college friends. She has friends that she's met through her husband through him teaching.

She has friends from her job. You know, she has me. She has all these different buckets of friends, and she's that person to all of them. So,

Kamesha: cry.

Denise: so I, I've always-

Kamesha: me cry, Denise. Stop.

Krista: Cry away. This is great. When do we get to do this?

Denise: yeah, so she's, she's just easy. She's just easy. She really is. I mean, she has an- another set of friends in Dubai that she still connects with. Like, she doesn't allow you not to feel her energy or not connect with her, so.

She doesn't see it because she's just being Kamesha. That's just who she

Andrea: She's in it. She's living it.

Denise: Mm-hmm. She's

Andrea: I think, um, if [00:47:00] I may, it also takes another person, another friend who receives that and then understands that and holds that, and that would be you, to, to bring that out. And I, I love that you're touching on friendship because in these conversations that we're having with women, much is about this, this center part of our lives and all of the things that seem to emerge.

And often those things are, related to, um, shifts that are happening, so if it's hormonal or if it's career or if it's, you know, all the things that we recognize are quite common amongst women at this time. And underneath it all, one of the things that we don't maybe spend a lot of time talking about, is, a thread that carries its way through so many of our stories, and that is the power of friendship

Denise: Yeah

Andrea: and, and what it takes to be a friend, um, [00:48:00] and what it takes to receive from a friend and what that looks like.

And Kamisha, you said something too. You said a lot of your listeners, um, one of the things that they talk about from your shows overall is how much they love your friendship. Um, and it's really interesting that that's one of the things that people are noticing because that, that is just such an underpinning of everything that we're navigating is our community in the forms of friends and, and people we're connected to.

It's so important for us to highlight our friendships and, and how wonderful they are and how much they mean to us,

Kamesha: I agree. I think this, in this time of our life too, there are so many women who don't have friends or who don't have good friends, is what I'm learning based on, you know, what our, some of our audience members have told [00:49:00] us and why they like our friendship, 'cause they can see, like, we're real friends, we're genuine.

Like, you know, she knows my family, I know her family. And I, I feel so sad when I hear that women who have gotten to this age don't have good friends. You don't, and you don't need a lot of friends. Like, you know, I, I do have many people in my circle, but you don't need that.

You don't need a lot of people. You just need a couple of people that are really for you. And it's interesting what Denise says about my friends and, like, all the different buckets. So I said I'm from New York, but when I moved here from-- I moved here because of college. And so I did have friends in college, but you know, in college people le- like, they move away after college.

They graduate, they go in different places. But I came back to Maryland because my husband was here. He was my boyfriend at the time, but we were together. And I had a hard time making friends. I really did. Like, I, I remember crying one [00:50:00] day, like, on the bed. Like, "I don't know why I can't make friends. I'm so kind."

My husband's like, "What is going on with you?" I'm like, "I can't." I just could not make a real friend, and I would be praying all the time, "God, please send me a good friend. Please send me a real friend. Please, please, please." And so I think that might be why, Denise, what you're saying, like, I hold on to my friends because I found it hard, like, to really find genuine women who weren't, like, trying to use me for anything, who weren't, trying to undermine me or anything.

Just, like, real people who understand you, who you can trust and you can talk to and, share your heart and share your dreams and just be real with. It was so difficult. And so once I started making them, I was like, "Oh, I can't let these people go." Like, "I gotta make sure I keep them around." I don't care how far away I live.

I'm just gonna make sure I stay connected to them because I finally [00:51:00] have found, real women friends who are, you know, women I just don't want to let go of. Like, I could not even think about, like, not checking in on them or not seeing how they're doing or not tell them how wonderful they are or not, you know, just uplift them because that's what friends do, right?

I mean, that's what you're supposed to do for friends. And they wouldn't be my friends if they weren't amazing anyway, so they need to understand that.

Krista: That's true. This might be a cool segue to kind of move into hearing about some words that really resonate with each of you, and to hear from you. Because I know,

it's so easy to sit there with your friend and say, you know, "She's giving, she's kind, she's all these things," that, you know, you see in your friend. But to turn that inward and to think about [00:52:00] words that really resonate with you, what, what are some of those words that stand out to you about yourself that you're really proud of, that sit with you, that you carry through your life?

Denise: Well, so I struggled, with this because it is so true. If I have to speak about someone else, I could tell you all the words, all the kind things, all the nice things, you know? Um, but then I, I tried to turn that mirror around to look at myself and I'm like, "What, what? ChatGPT, who am I?"

Kamesha: Tell me some words that describe

Denise: Where's Mr. Chat? on. You've known me. Me and you have been talking now for six months. We have a re- What are my... You know, and then I g- I went to my husband and I'm like, "What are my words?" And then I went to my daughter and I'm like, "What am I w- what, what are my words? What..." You know, and, and it was so funny [00:53:00] that, um, one of the words that they all came up with, um, including Chat, was, um, nurturer. That you're a nurturer. And I, and I thought, "Yeah. Well, you know, but I'm a mom and I'm a grandmom, and, you know, that's what I do. You, you know, you nurture and you serve. You have the spirit of servitude." But then I look at it outside of being a mom and a grandmom and a sister and, you know, an aunt, and I think just like you were saying that that spirit of caring for others and, and the spirit of servitude, it kind of branches outward outside of your family, onto animals, onto...

Like, I, I could go, I could be at someone's house and I'm not really... I'm socially awkward a little bit in person. And I could be at someone's house and go in their kitchen and start doing their dishes. Like, they're a cooking person, I'll start doing their dishes. You know, I'll start helping them clean the kitchen.

You know, "Do you want me to cut your [00:54:00] potatoes? What do you..." And like, and all the other women, you know, are sitting down and they're having glasses of wine and they're chatting and they're talking. And I'm in there and I'm, like, doing the dishes. I'm straightening this up. I'm doing this. And, and I was like, "I wish one time that I could just sit my ass down, have a glass of wine with all the other women," but I'm so socially awkward that I gravitate to the thing that is more, um, normal to me and comfortable, and that is in that servitude position.

So that was one of my words. Um, another word is a word that I started really, really honing in on about three years ago, and that was grace. Giving myself grace for all my inadequacies, for all the things that I think I don't do well, for all my fails and F-ups, for all the things that, you know, I just think that, didn't go well.

You know, for, for all the things that has happened [00:55:00] to me that I thought that was my fault. I'm sorry. That I thought was my fault, you know? I wanted to give myself grace. So that word has stuck with me. Every time I feel like I'm down, it's like, "No, give yourself grace. Give yourself grace and give it to you daily.

Give it to you daily, because it's not your fault." You know? I was sexually assaulted. It's not your fault. I was raped. It's not your fault. You know? So all these things, I think grace is one of my biggest words out of all of them. And- I think the, I wrote them down, the last, the last three was, uh, the two of them were brave and resilient.

You know? Um, I'm becoming brave. I wasn't always brave. Um, but I'm becoming, more brave through therapy, through medication, through talking with my friend, through talking with my husband, through, you know, Miss Kamisha pushes some of my fear buttons and makes me like, "Come on, you can do [00:56:00] it. You can do it.

I got faith in you." You know? So, um, I'm becoming brave. I'm not all the way there yet, but I- I'm bec- I'm getting there, you know? And just being resilient, just standing strong, being here against all odds as a Black female who has went through so many, you know, racial things, as a Black female married in an interracial couple and have suffered, you know, from the hands of not just, you know, white, white racism, but the colorism too from the Black community who don't feel like, you know, I should be in this relationship.

So just standing firm and being resilient in where I am. And then my last word is worrier. And it's not nothing I'm proud of.

It's nothing I, yeah, it's not nothing I'm proud of, but it's, it's, it's truth. It's me. It's who I am, you know? So

Kamesha: Yes

Andrea: And it's a word that you're carrying and [00:57:00] perhaps is showing up in different ways for you as you continue to hone in on those other words. Maybe there's something in there that carries that worry in a different way for you as you move forward

Denise: I think so. I think

Kamesha: I'm glad that

Andrea: Those are

Kamesha: That was a good one for you, because I know you've been working on that, like giving yourself grace

Andrea: love the, the descriptions you gave too. Uh, you know, just the way that they share. This is the beautiful part about this, is that we can share words that we all nod because we know that word, but we know our version of what that word means. And when you share your words and then you add in what they mean to you or how they occur for you, it's, it's like it creates such goosebumps of, like, such appreciation for how each of us is so unique and how each of us [00:58:00] carries our own unique stories, and then how our words show up for us.

Um, so thank you so much for, for all the thought that you shared in, in those words and, and the work that you did to, to land with them. Thank you so much

Denise: I, it was, the homework was so strenuous. I mean, I really think I stressed ChatGPT out. At some point it was like, "I've come up with five. I've come up with 50. Do you need more?"

Andrea: How do you feel on the other side of it now? Do you feel relieved?

Denise: I felt relieved before saying it out loud because when I had to write it down bec- uh, 'cause me and Kamesha have actually been talking about this for a while. Like, "You got your five words?" She even texted me today, "Do you have your five words?" You know. and I felt good before saying it out loud because when I wrote down other words, and then I would just scratch out that word and then drill down to the five words that really I felt mattered, you [00:59:00] know?

So I felt good because I was doing work, and it felt therapeutic. I don't, you know, for lack of better word. Right. But it just felt very therapeutic because I really had to look at that word and go, "Why do that word resonate with me?" You know?

Kamesha: Right.

Denise: Yeah. So yeah. So definitely, definitely feel,

Andrea: you. Gosh, that's so insightful

Denise: it.

Mm-hmm.

Krista: is this the first time you've ... Y-

Denise: Yeah

Kamesha: When Krista said, "Oh, if you have more words," I'm like, "More? I could just come up with barely come up with the five."

Andrea: It is hard, right? 'Cause,

Krista: It is

Andrea: think, I think we all touched on the fact that we're really good at naming other people that we love, that we know. I could rattle off, 100 words between the three of you right now, and that's even just knowing you two from, you know, a short time

Denise: just to talk about Kanesha, and I, it, and it takes me seven minutes to even think about what I'm gonna say about myself. Wait, hold

Andrea: Exactly. [01:00:00] Exactly. uh, we don't have the same self-talk as we do for other people, and there's something there that is,

Kamesha: Yes

Andrea: that's important

Denise: gonna say something. What were you gonna s-

Krista: I, I was just gonna s- ask you, for both of you, is this the first time you've taken this time to think about yourself in this way?

Denise: I think for me, yes. Now, my therapist has made me do different types of exercises, but I don't think that it would drill down to five words. Like she'd say, you know, "What did you... What do you think about what are you going through right now?" Or, How do you feel about your next step?"

And you know, things like that. But I don't think I've ever had to sit down and say, "Okay, these words really resonate with me and describe a," not even a whole of me, but some of them just describes a portion of me that has taken over a whole

Andrea: of me[01:01:00]

Kamesha: uhum

Denise: think that's the first time, and I'm gonna say it's the first time that it mattered.

It could have happened 10 or 20 years ago, but my immaturity and my anxiety and my PTSD didn't let me like focus on it. So I think it's maybe the first time that it actually mattered, you know?

Kamesha: Well, when I, when we were at, um, the company... So N- Denise and I used to work at the same company. That's how we wound up meeting. Um, and so there was a leadership program that we had at that company, and we were both in the leadership program, but at different times. And, um, we had to do the strength test, like strength finders.

Are you familiar with strength finders where you, there's a, you know, a whole list of questions and then you come back with, I don't know, what's your top strengths? Oh, look at you.

Denise: That's it

Krista: Andrea, you have to, the people that are listening, you have to tell them what you just showed us

Denise: Oh

Andrea: just, as, [01:02:00] as we were hearing about Strength Finders, I just picked up my version of Strength Finders, the book,

Kamesha: We had to do that StrengthsFinders, um, for that leadership program, and I had never taken any kind of test like that. We also did some other personality tests, like Myers-Briggs or something. So I had never taken any of those personality tests, but then I took that StrengthsFinders, like, very seriously.

Like, "Okay, I need to find out, like, what kind of leader I am," you know? Um, but what it taught me was, like, there's different categories for your strengths, and all of my strengths were around people. Like, I had individualism. I'm trying to remember what the three of them were, 'cause you, like, it gets, like, your top

Denise: Yep

Kamesha: or whatever.

But anyway, they were all, all people strength. And it actually started making me think like, "Am I a people per-" Like, is that who I am? Like, I had never examined it. Like, I had never thought about it. Like Denise says, "I'm just me," right? So you're just going about being you, you know, doing you. But I [01:03:00] actually had to look at, like, some of those strengths and I had to ask myself, "Is that me?

Do I do that?" And, and I recognized myself in some of those. And so that was probably the first time that I thought about words to describe me, but they were given to me by StrengthsFinders. But as far as me thinking of words, this is the first time I've done that.

So anyway, I did come around to some words I, I am a- I'm agreeing with. And we actually have a word in common, Denise. I was-- When you were talking, I was like, "Oh my gosh." And so one of my words is resilient.

Denise: Yes, you are. Very

Kamesha: I definitely would call myself resilient. And it's funny because I was talking to my brother, I have a twin brother, and I was talking to my brother,

Denise: of things

Kamesha: couple of days ago, and he's been going through some things in the last couple of years and I was talking to him about, "You're strong and you're capable and you can do all these things."

And I'm like, "And we are [01:04:00] resilient. We are from resilient people. Like remember our grandfather, remember our ancestry." I was just going through this whole study about, slavery and everything and, our ancestors were, slaves and I was like, "Look at how far we've come and we're still here."

and he's like, "Yeah, and that's you." And I was like, "What?" You know, I'm like busy talking to him about it. And he's like, "And you too." And I was like, "Well, whatever." And I'm still, you know, pumping him up. So when we had to think about it, it came back to me and I was like, "Oh, I am, I'm resilient." So that's one of my words.

I have resilient. And I crossed out nice because nice is more like people-pleasing to me. But I do have kind, and kind, I looked it up too, of a sympathetic or helpful nature, but not nice.

Denise: you are. Mm-hmm.

Kamesha: That is me. I, I do feel like I am a kind person. I, I think it comes naturally to me to be kind, and I feel like when I was younger, I used to be taken advantage of because I was just like naturally nice and naturally [01:05:00] giving and naturally generous, and people would take advantage.

And then I didn't wanna be nice anymore. But now as I've gotten older, I'm like, "No, that's on them that they wanna take advantage of me." I like being kind, I like being nice. Um, I work in a school and one of the kids said to me last week, because I give out snacks and stuff and they know that they only get one, but like one kid was having a hard day, so she's like, "Can I have two?"

And I was like, "Ugh." And so I gave her two after I hemmed and hawed. And one of the kids was like, "Oh, Miss Miller, you always so nice. You're too nice. You're too nice to these people. You're too nice to these kids." And I was like, "What's wrong with being nice?" You know? And I was like, "It's really more about kindness.

It's not about niceness." She's like, "What's the difference?" And then I'm like explaining to her the difference. But I am kind and I actually enjoy being known as a kind person.

Denise: Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

Kamesha: thank you, Denise.

Denise: Mm-hmm.

Kamesha: So I have

Andrea: We need more of that

Denise: Check. Mm-hmm

Kamesha: I have resilient, and then I have another word. I kinda made it up. I'm sure there's a word that equates to it, but I wrote [01:06:00] down figure-outer.

Denise: Yes. Oh my God, I just had this conversation today ab- with my husband about you. About you figuring, about you figuring out stuff and you will not let it go until you figure it out. Andrea, Krista, I'm telling you, we could be on a podcast planning meeting at 8:00 o'clock and we're trying to figure out something and she can't figure out, and we'll shut it down.

And at 11:00 o'clock at night she will text me and said, "I couldn't fucking go to sleep. I figured it out." Perfect word

Kamesha: I'm not settled until something is clear. Like, I need things to be clear, so I, I have to, like, figure it out.

But I am, I'm like a a person who has to solve things.

So funny. You're funny. Okay, so what else? Tho- those are my words. Oh, I also put down a word. This is like a newer [01:07:00] word, I think, for me, and it is evolving.

Denise: I love it

Kamesha: think of myself as, as evolving and, like, intentionally evolving. And maybe that leadership class, put me on a course, 'cause I can kind of think back to when, like, a lot of my shifts about who I am and how I can be, how I be and all of this stuff started when I took that leadership course and people saw something in me that I didn't see in myself.

And after that, I'm like, "How can I see more of, who I am?" And so I feel like I am definitely in a place where I am intentionally continually trying to become more me. I don't wanna say better, because, um, that makes it seem like there's something wrong with me, but just more in touch with, like, who I really, really am.

And so I love this, evolution that I've been going through here in the last, I don't know, probably, like, I guess since 2017, 2018, so however long that's been, like, this [01:08:00] last eight years. So evolving is another word. And my last word, I don't know if I really like it, but I'm gonna just go with it. Yes, I'm gonna go with it. It's spirited. And the definition was full of energy, animation, or courage,

Denise: Yeah. Yeah

Kamesha: of energy, animation, or courage. 'Cause people like to call me positive, optimistic. I didn't like those words, so I'm like, "I need to find another word that is more encompassing, like, of,

Denise: Of all of that

Kamesha: things."

Yes, of all those things. So spirited my word. But the reason I'm not sure I like it is 'cause I don't always feel courageous. So it's like Denise, trying to be more brave. Like, some days I feel courageous, but many days I don't. That was what I was arguing with my son about when he tried to say courageous.

I was like, "No, that's not the right word." Um, I don't think of myself as courageous. But I do like spirited. I think of myself as spirited[01:09:00]

Denise: So

Andrea: I love spirited

Denise: I do too, but when I think of courageous, I think of you being a married woman with two kids who took a job all the way across the world in Dubai with your family here and still kept it all together. That is super freaking courageous and super freaking brave. I don't think I could have ever did that, ever.

And I think when you took that position and you was talking to me about it, that was the one thing I said to you, that I was so proud of you, that you were so courageous, and that go do it and do it big. and your family are still just as close as ever. So you took a job across the world and still kept all the pieces together, and it wasn't easy.

I saw you struggle

Kamesha: No, it was during COVID for crying outloud!

Denise: You- I did. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kamesha: It was difficult, but I, I don't... Maybe spirited

Denise: Keep courageous with inspirited [01:10:00] though

Kamesha: thing. Like, people tell me it's courageous, so I guess I have to believe them. But I didn't think of it as courageous because I just felt called to do, like I felt like I had to do it.

So I didn't feel like I needed to be brave, I just felt like I had to do it, and so whatever came with it, came with it, and if being brave and courageous is part of it, then that's fine. But it wasn't like I put the courage first. It's like the courage kind of came after knowing that I had to do it,

Denise: Yeah.

Andrea: Does make sense. It's so interesting, again, like how you described each of your words and what they meant to you, even how you l- looked them up, which I love that you looked them all up and you had your definitions, but then how you adapted the definition to be very specific to you is really, again, like such an interesting insight.

And the other thing that really stood out for me is how we create rules [01:11:00] for things So as an example, like we don't know, in this exercise, if you're allowed to have a word that doesn't necessarily apply every single day of your life. But then we apply that rule where we're like, "Oh, I'm not allowed to take that word because the rule in my mind is that I would have to be that

Denise: come out like

Andrea: all the time."

Kamesha: Right. Right.

Denise: Yeah, thumbs up

Andrea: but I just... it's really interesting, again, like coming back to that exercise, which is uncomfortable for so many of us to focus on ourselves and then share outside of ourselves, not outside of our own brains, which is scary, so that's courage.

Because if we put ourselves out there by saying things into conversations like this, we're actually being courageous in sharing something very vulnerable. Um, and also just recognizing again that we get to make the [01:12:00] rules for how we show up

Kamesha: You're right.

Andrea: we share.

Krista: Especially now in midlife. Isn't it fun?

Denise: Mm-hmm.

Kamesha: Yes. If not now, when, right?

Andrea: Right? We get to, we get to make these ru- the rules of engagement are in our hands

Kamesha: Yes. I love this exercise though. I, I, I really do like it, and I like that it was hard, and I like that we actually had to think about the words and either ask people, look them up, whatever it is, but really be very direct with, "Is this me?"

Denise: Very intentional

Kamesha: who am I, and who do I wanna say I am, right?

Because there's a lot of different words that you, we could have picked from to be like, "This is me now," right? But I, I really love this exercise. I don't know if you ladies do this all the time, but keep it up.

Denise: Yeah,

Kamesha: Because also for women, I think we are so outward. Like, like Denise says, it's so easy [01:13:00] to like talk about somebody else and tell them how great they are, but we need to spend more time inward, right?

Appreciating who we are as well. So I think this was a great

Denise: And I do think, Kamesha, from our episode Living the Soft Life in Midlife, that that is a key component because you gotta figure out who you are, what does that mean, you know, how, how it resonates with you to get you toward that path of living those moments in your life. And I love the fact that it wasn't a, a exercise where you asked on the episode, like, "What, what five words?"

No, you actually gave us time to really dig into those words and try to figure out... You know, it probably did way more for us than just explaining it on this, this short one hour or so. But we have been digging for days. Like, we have literally probably had this conversation or even just, [01:14:00] just something snippet about it, you know, probably six times.

even today she's like, "You got your words? Do you have your five words?" Have you... You know what I mean? So it has been top of mind, you know? So beautiful job, Beautiful job. Mm-hmm.

Krista: idea. That is so cool.

Andrea: It is

Kamesha: So did you think it was gonna be easy, when you asked people, the women for their five words? Like, "Oh, I'm sure it'll be like boom, boom, boom."

Denise: Gruen

Kamesha: okay.

Krista: A- and everybody, everybody arrives at their words in a different way. Everybody says them in a different way. Some people will say their words at the beginning, and they're like, "I have my five words. Can I say them now?" And then they say all the five words. And then others, in other episodes like this, we do it at the end, and it's just very organic.

And some will use the five words throughout the entire episode.[01:15:00]

Denise: yeah. Mm-hmm.

Krista: So with,

Denise: to have the

Krista: yeah, with each, with each word comes a different story or a different catalyst that has helped them go down a different path or, you know, they use the words to describe different parts of their lives

Denise: I agree. I agree. On,

Kamesha: thank you so much for being so vulnerable and, be willing to play and figure it out

Denise: figure it out.

Andrea: Figure it

Krista: with grace

Andrea: And all the

Kamesha: Yes. And

Denise: the master figure-outer

Andrea: resilience

Krista: Yep.

Andrea: kindness and figure-outing

Krista: Yep. All the things, ladies. This is so cool.

Andrea: becomes like a little bit of an anthem. I think that's one of the words that has kind of, uh, been arriving lately when we've been chatting with people isthere's this sense of this being a bit of a collective anthem. And when you put all the words together from all of our, guests that we've had so far, [01:16:00] um, it is.

now almost like a fully versed anthem because of all the different words, um, from all the different backgrounds that have all their stories attached to

Denise: it. Yeah, I don't think we'll ever forget it. Like it's, it's one of those exercises and one of those things where if, if three weeks from now somebody said, "What word would you ch-..." I was like, "I got my words. Wait a minute now." Yeah.

Kamesha: you describe yourself?

Andrea: I've done the work.

Kamesha: I know. I can tell you right now.

Denise: I know my words

Andrea: I love that.

Krista: I love that.

Denise: If my ther- my therapist ever gives me this, I'm just like, "Give me something harder. I'm already there. I already got that one"

Krista: Done. Checked. I love that.

Andrea: Wow, that's so good

Krista: could, honestly, we could talk with you, and we will. There'll be more of these conversations. We're- we could talk with you for hours. You're so easy [01:17:00] to be with. Thank you for being so open and playful with us and also for your time.

Denise: Thank you for having us. This was very

Kamesha: This was good. This was fun. Yes.

Andrea: that's what we hope for. We hope for fun, right? 'Cause we've gotta have more fun, and inject the spontaneity and the conversations that aren't rehearsed and practiced.

Kamesha: People need to stop taking themselves so seriously all the time

Krista: Well, If this is the first time, um, our listeners are hearing about you, where can they go to learn more?

Denise: we are at Wisdom in Bloom Podcast everywhere, on every platform, and it's @wisdominbloompodcast. So it's really simple, really easy. I'm Denise, and with my fabulous co-host, Kamisha, and our podcast releases every Wednesday. But in between those every other Wednesday, we release what's called Wednesday Wisdoms, and it's just snippets and nuggets of little things that we may have talked about [01:18:00] in other episodes that we thought was worth repeating or worth, sharing again. And it also touches those who don't have time to sit and listen to an hour podcast or a 30-minute podcast, so they can get, five minutes, seven minutes, nine minutes of something really powerful and really quick, and they can go about their day,

Um, we are a podcast that reaches a lot of women. We look at our demographics, and we have women on there from 25 to, 35, but we also have, um, a demographic all the way up to 75, And so it's really cool to see that we reach so much, although our core, um, audience is midlife women.

But, um, it's really cool that we're able to reach so many and touch, you know, at least

Kamesha: men too.

Denise: Yeah, and men, and we've, uh, been able to touch about seven or eight, um, international markets, so that's been really cool. Um, if you're listening to the podcast on audio only, [01:19:00] you can listen to it pretty much anywhere that you can get podcasts, from Spotify, to Amazon, to Google Podcasts, to iHeartRadio, to pod-, uh, caste, you know, even in the UK.

So you can find us at Wisdom In Bloom, I-N, In Bloom,

Andrea: Thank you. Thank you.

Krista: Appreciate

it

Denise: I needed this

Andrea: So much fun.

Krista: We all did

Andrea: both amazing.

Krista: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Denise: I thought I knew her, you

Kamesha: I thought I knew you. I, I

Krista: Disney, McDonald's,

Andrea: where that comes from

Krista: Whoo

Kamesha: know. I

Denise: thanks to Carolyn Hawes too. Thank you, Carolyn

Krista: Yes, big shout out to Carolyn.

Denise: for bringing this, this collaboration together. We are just so grateful for her.

Andrea: Shout out to Carolyn with Jose and Pedro and Alice and Danny and Donna

Krista: Benetton

Andrea: and Benetton. put her at the top of our list

Kamesha: Yes. She's awesome.

Thanks so much for being with us today. If you loved this [01:20:00] episode, please share it with someone who might need to hear it. And to learn more about HalfBetty, visit halfbetty.com, follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn, and subscribe to our YouTube channel for full episodes.

Krista: Thanks for listening, folks. We'll meet you right back here next time.